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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Tonight's local news told about a guy who was disturbing the peace or some such. Cops were called. On the scene they approached the guy who pulled a knive and lunged at them. They fired and he died. Interviews are being aired in which his friends declare the poor sweet, nice guy couldn't possibly have done what cops said he did. Yeah, right. Why did they call the cops if everything was so fine? :eek:

JimL
 

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Agreed..Jim
Something was amiss there.
people can always speculate what they think should have or could have happened..
I can say this with 100% confidence ,that officer saftey always comes first in my book..
the only ones that have the answer to what happened is: GOD, the LEOs who had to shoot and the guy at the other end ..
everything else is speculation..
Don't always agree with the way LE handles some things, but they are in a position that ordinary folks will never understand..

Guy with a knife coming at them, maybe they could have used something less deadly, but that a decision that is made in a instant.

its sad that the people now days are so mixed up on right and wrong..
We lost another Officer in Phoenix this week..my heart breaks more and more for these young guys doing job nowadays that is more dangerous than ever in history..
I wish the news would start backing them more when they do a good job than cover them when they are killed ...
sorry for the soapbox, just tired of good men doing a thankless job and then getting questioned..
 

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The problem (at least in part) is that LEOs are more and more isolated from society. No longer a part of the community they are one side of the "us against them" equation. Whose fault is that? Some is the fault of those who never see a cop as being right in what he/she does.

Arrest or shoot a perp and the BG is some sort of victim. If they don't stop the BG then they aren't protecting society. The LEOs find it to hard to do anything right when they are always wrong in the eyes of many; especially in the media.

And for a number of years the LEOs have become more and more militarized. SWAT types of law enforcement come across as nameless and faceless "The Man" who is "Big Brother" and every other negative image you can come up with.

Yes there are some, I say again SOME, bad cops. And there are those who enjoy the use of authority; but when you come right down to it most are regular folks who want to do a good job in the face of resistance and resentment.

Fireman are seen as heroes. LEOs should be too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
grouchy hippo said:
Yes there are some, I say again SOME, bad cops. And there are those who enjoy the use of authority; but when you come right down to it most are regular folks
What are regular folks anymore? I don't see a lot to recommend in much of what goes on on either side of the law. National organizations have a primary goal of making our schools anti-morality. "What's yours is mine," is the rule from the gutter to the corporate president. Obviously bad guys have been around always, but the "ever upward" march of the religion of evolution seems to have missed a turn somewhere.

JimL
 

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dbsoundguy said:
Agreed..Jim
Something was amiss there.
people can always speculate what they think should have or could have happened..
I can say this with 100% confidence ,that officer saftey always comes first in my book..
the only ones that have the answer to what happened is: GOD, the LEOs who had to shoot and the guy at the other end ..
everything else is speculation..
Don't always agree with the way LE handles some things, but they are in a position that ordinary folks will never understand..

Guy with a knife coming at them, maybe they could have used something less deadly, but that a decision that is made in a instant.

its sad that the people now days are so mixed up on right and wrong..
We lost another Officer in Phoenix this week..my heart breaks more and more for these young guys doing job nowadays that is more dangerous than ever in history..
I wish the news would start backing them more when they do a good job than cover them when they are killed ...
sorry for the soapbox, just tired of good men doing a thankless job and then getting questioned..
Something I saw on youtube, last night:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
dbsoundguy said:
people can always speculate what they think should have or could have happened..
I guess what really bothers me is that it isn't really speculation; it's mere fiction, said with malice against the people who try to keep the peace. You can't tell me that people never got a clue that a lunatic was a lunatic unless they were lunatics themselves.

And listen to some inner city kid when asked about a stabbing or shooting. "I don't snitch. People shouldn't get all up in other people's business." OK, I guess that means that if someone is cutting you and beating the snot out of you no one else should "get all up in your business," but just let it happen.

People are just buying their brains at the wrong store. :soapbox:

JimL
 

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Allot of good points, one thing is that neighbors and people don't want to get involved. Things could be stopped or maybe prevented if someone would call, talk to someone, or try to help, etc. etc. It just gets me when someone can have a driveway robber, rape, or their whole house carried away and no one around sees it. It used to not be that way in Texas, maybe up North, but now eveyone seems to be blind, deaf and dumb here also. But it's getting here that most are not "from" Texas. The words "neighbor and friend " just don't mean much anymore.
 

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Good Video...Mikeo
They need something like that shown on the news.
Poor BG only had a knife.. maybe people would worry alittle more about knives than guns...
that was pretty quick when that guy moved, i did not realize how fast that could happen.. and at 10 feet, you would think you could get your gun out..
I can't imagine what LEOs go through in that split second of decsion..

one thing is that neighbors and people don't want to get involved.......The words "neighbor and friend " just don't mean much anymore
texas shooter....
That is so true now....What happened that made people that way..
Sad Sad Days :-[ :-[
 

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Crap, at 10 ft, guy with a knife.

If you do not have gun out, and ready to use it, your gonna get hurt the majority of the time. Unless you practice, practice the draw and point fire a lot.

That is more scary to me, than a wild man with a gun at church or the mall!! unless I am the first guy he shoots.
 

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dbsoundguy said:
Good Video...Mikeo
They need something like that shown on the news.
Poor BG only had a knife.. maybe people would worry alittle more about knives than guns...
that was pretty quick when that guy moved, i did not realize how fast that could happen.. and at 10 feet, you would think you could get your gun out..
I can't imagine what LEOs go through in that split second of decsion..
texas shooter....
That is so true now....What happened that made people that way..
Sad Sad Days :-[ :-[
Yep! A knife is a DEFINITE deadly weapon, and distance can be closed very rapidly. I don't consider a knife wielding BG any less a threat than a gun toting BG. If I see a knife in his hand, my gun is out and ready.
The BG in the OP had a knife and lunged at the officers. To me, the amount of force they used was commensurate with the threat posed.
Poor, sweet guy, my butt.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
texas shooter said:
one thing is that neighbors and people don't want to get involved. Things could be stopped or maybe prevented if someone would call, talk to someone, or try to help, etc. etc.
I would observe that, once again, armies of legal beagles worked so ____ hard at protecting BG's and hauling victims into court and litigating their lives into oblivion it's no wonder people gave up on helping anybody do anything.

Do we all remember what has happened too often when a para-medic (or anyone) tried to save a life and just couldn't? When judges allow someone to sue the socks off of those para-medics for making a valiant effort to help, the judges are the ones who are responsible for people giving up.

A few miles from here a kid was trying to break into a high school through a skylight. In the process, he fell through it and was injured. A judge let the parents sue the school for it! :mad:

We've all heard of the phrase "contempt of court." In a huge number of cases nowadays the "courts" have thoroughly earned and deserved contempt.

My apologies and kudos to those few who are trying to turn the tide. You are fighting an uphill battle against a continuing flood of laws written by the power crazy, money grubbing, lunatic politicians who far outnumber the reasonable among them. :soapbox:

JimL

ps

They should have taken the kid back to the school roof and dropped him through the busted skylight on his head a couple times.
 

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Robby said:
Crap, at 10 ft, guy with a knife.

If you do not have gun out, and ready to use it, your gonna get hurt the majority of the time. Unless you practice, practice the draw and point fire a lot.

That is more scary to me, than a wild man with a gun at church or the mall!! unless I am the first guy he shoots.
I had a very vivid demonstration of this when I was a (reserve) LEO:

My Captain pulled me aside one day (small town force), and said lets go do some training. We went to the police/volunteer fire garage, and unloaded our weapons (and double checked each others' unloaded weapons).

At this point, he had me holster my firearm, and grabbed a plastic garbage bag tie, and said, "this is a knife". He backed about twenty feet away, and we started talking. He said, "you need to draw and pull the trigger before I get to you." So I knew he "had a knife" and I knew he was going to come at me.

As we were chatting there, me with my hand on the butt of my weapon, he lunged. Before I could even clear leather, he "stabbed" me three times. What an eye-opener. We worked for a short time on techniques to defend myself (knock the knife away from me with my off hand while backing up and changing directions until I can clear leather, etc). By the end of it, I was able to move, clear leather, and "double tap" while avoiding the blade.

At 10' - the officer is dead unles they react quickly. And more food for thought - if the officer does NOT fire, and is killed or disabled - the perp now has the chance to get the officer's own weapon, and cause even further death and destruction to the officer or innocents.

I learned long ago that my job as a police officer was to go home at the end of my shift and kiss my wife. I couldn't do that dead or disabled. It is the possibility of an officer having his own gun used against him that drives that fact that an OC/pepper spray attack on an officer is legally considered a justification for lethal force.

Bad guy has knife and attacks officers - bad guy gets shot. I may feel for the perp, but IF the situation is as reported, bad guy goes down every time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Robby said:
If you do not have gun out, and ready to use it,
I note the dual nature of this. Physical and mental.

1. The gun.

2. Something I tend to harp on - having it clear in your mind that you will do what is necessary.


Last night I was reading a guy who said self-defense with a .22 cal must always be with solid point ammo to get penetration.

Seems to me if it's down to .22 cal it must always be, mentally prepared to fire repeatedly whatever you have in it.

Know what you're going to do, LEO or civilian.

JimL
 

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Use something less deadly? Since when is someone trying to kill you with a knife not warrant deadly force? These people should have come out and shook the officer's hand for taking out their trash for them. What kind of country is this?
 

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Its sad, but as was mentioned "they are one side of the "us against them" equation". I have a good number of friends who are city p.d.- sherrif - state and even a retired U.S. MArshal.

Yes, some can let it go to their heads a bit. A vey good friend on the city had the nickname "Hollywood" for years expecially when he was trying to get with the B.A.T.F. But he was just overzealous, he didn't go out of his way to harass folks.

The sad thing is how they are so often percieved. It is no wonder they have become more militarized. One of my inner circle of friends is a city p.d. I have seen more than once when we were out having a good time, not getting drunk but maybe a couple drinks or going to a club etc. It's common to rib him about his job the same as he does to others along.

As soon as its discovered he is a police officer- I have seen him become a pariah. People that had been laughing and joking with us not 2 minutes before would immediately shun him, and many times us. (We are almost all outgoing so we usually end up talking with anyone around. The next table, walking by, etc.) When he was single I have seen ladies whom he was getting along with very well walk away from him. I have had people directly ask me how I can associate with L.E.O.s Funny what magically changed when BEFORE knowing that person(s) is a law officer and 30 seconds later AFTER finding out the officer is a piece of garbage or a leper to be avoided.

I also recall a time when I had my store. We would play stategy and r.p.g.s in the back room. A then new local state trooper who had become a friend was playing for the first time. He is an excellent tactician. He was doing great. It was 3 teams of 2. The G.M. (game master) overseeing the mock miniature battle kept complementing him on how well he was doing. Especially since it was his first time. As soon as the G.M. (who was from a large city 50 miles away) found out he was a state police officer ( the G.M. has multiple speeding tickets at that time, from another state even)- EVERY "shot" was measured. EVERYTHING he did came under scrutiny. The G.M. even made some comments bordering on insult when not 5 minutes before it was nothing but praise. < I IMMEDIATELY adressed the atitude when commenting to ANYONE at my table or in MY store.>

It is no wonder many L.E.O.s develop a shell to protect or harden themselves. I recall when a state trooper friend was transfered down to a big city about 125 miles from our smaller community. He was involved in a shooting. He was the one who brought the B.G. down. With all the garbage cries of how nice the poor deceased was, ( The B.G. had stolen a car and beat a girl half to death and shot first at the troopers btw. ) no one seemed to care what the effect was on the troopers involved. He was devastated for a while. He took anothers life. You don't get over that with a good nights sleep. Why do you think so many state local and city units have councilors?

It is so easy to go along and be part of the sheep or lemmings when it comes to trashing "big brother" or "the establishment". But let those same wolf criers be the one the L.E.O. saved or a family member of one saved and all of a sudden the officer(s) is a hero and deserving of a Nobel peace prize. The hypocrisy enrages me.

Respects- Brizzo
 

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Brizzo said:
It is so easy to go along and be part of the sheep or lemmings when it comes to trashing "big brother" or "the establishment". But let those same wolf criers be the one the L.E.O. saved or a family member of one saved and all of a sudden the officer(s) is a hero and deserving of a Nobel peace prize. The hypocrisy enrages me.

Respects- Brizzo
Ahhh...finally...a breath of fresh air. Thank you so much for that comment. I've been trying to make that point my whole career to various people with little success.
 

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I come from a family with LEOs. I have heard and seen the good and bad. I have a great respect for the men and women that have chosen to persue that profession. These people are on the front lines of a society that has yet to come to full maturity. WE Americans are living with freedoms and rights that no other civilization on earth has ever expierenced. The Dirtbag element of our country is in every neighborhood. These LEO Folks have to be on guard all the time. The danger is ever increasing. (Especialy in the border states.) Try and picture a country with no police at all.
 

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bmrtek said:
These people are on the front lines of a society that has yet to come to full maturity.
Strikes me it's matured to over ripe and rotting.
 

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This country has yet to fall from the tree of liberty and regrow in the soil of freedom.
 

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Whats worrisome is whether we will regrow or go splat.

Steelheart
 
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