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Discussion Starter #1
It was still light when Bernard McGee greeted Carl Dixon in front of a house in the 1600 block of East 81st Street. McGee was sitting on the porch. With him was his common-law wife, their 3-month-old baby boy Ejuan, and McGee's cousin, Sidney McFarland.
McGee barely had time to exchange greetings with Dixon. As soon as Dixon sat, there was an explosion of gunfire. "Boom, pac, pac, pac, boom, boom, boom!" McGee said, recalling the sound. A group of people were shooting from behind a wall. McGee looked at Dixon. He saw the red fabric of Dixon's shirt whip, as if a strong breeze were yanking it. Dixon was being shot in the torso.
Then McGee felt two little sharp jabs in his legs. Quick piercings. One in each thigh. He felt no pain. But he had a clear sensation of two tiny objects plunging into his flesh. He knew had been hit. Instinct, or adrenalin, put him in motion. He was running. "I had no choice," he said. "My legs got up and went."
As McGee got to the door of the house, he felt his own shirt whip and jerk, the fabric gently brushing his spine. It was a bullet. McGee had been shot in the back. He hit the floor, lying on the carpet just inside the door. His wife jumped over him.
After a lifetime on 81st, McGee could distinguish different types of gunfire. He knew there were at least two guns--a pistol and an assault rifle. The floor beneath him vibrated with the blasts. Large, brassy rifle shells bounced before his eyes. McGee looked down into the carpet. They would all soon be dead, he recalled thinking.




Article source:What it's like to be shot, Part II | The Homicide Report | Los Angeles Times

The salient question most shooters have on their minds reading the above is what caliber was the unfortunate Mr. McGee shot with.We'll get to that in a minute, but I posted this because this is an instance of a man being shot multiple times who did NOT do any of the things the so called experts say someone would do when shot with the rounds he was hit with.

Notice McGee did not drop dead on the spot. Nor did he instantly fall to his wounds or hit the ground wailing in pain. He ran with two rounds in his leg until he was hit in the back near the doorway of his house.

As to the caliber of rounds that him:


The paramedics put a neck brace on him. In the ambulance, they looked over his wounds. There were long rips through each leg, and a bullet wound in the small of his back. "Looks like they shot you with an AK-47," one paramedic told him. "Your muscles are all torn up." They told him he'd been lucky.


The conclusion that I draw from this is that caliber war debates are pointless. Whether one carries a .22LR or .50 Action Express, the bad guy will not just lay down and quit if he doesn't want to, and the only way to ensure 100% chance of stopping an assault is a CNS hit or a headshot.

As we witness above the storied 7.62x39mm round is revered as the most deadly thing man can carry next to a jar of the Ebola virus, and this unfortunate man was not only able to survive and slowly recover from his wounds he was still able to "fight back" had the need to do so been present. No drugs or alcohol were involved in this story either.
 
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Thanks for sharing this very interesting article.

It does kinda' "shoot holes" in the caliber debates.
 
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I think this really says to me, if you don't aim you won't hit $hit. 2 flesh wounds in the meaty part of the thighs and he takes off running. What did you expect? Shot in the small of the back from behind, knocked him down, but no mention of whether anything vital was hit, probably not since he survived. So I'm not exactly sure how this has anything to do with caliber or anything else since the shooter(s) clearly missed or maybe he just didn't understand that live targets don't go down unless you hit something vital. Living animals, including man, are very hardy and hard to kill, unless you hit them in a vital part of the body.

Placement of the shot will always trump bullet size and velocity. If you can't aim your fire accurately, it doesn't matter if you have a .22Short or a .50BMG.
 

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Little curious here. If the people were across the street, shooting from behind a wall. Then, the man is shot while attempting to get from on his porch into hos front door, and lands face down, facing into hos house. Yet, he is clearly able to see "Large, brassy rifle shells bounced before his eyes".

Help us out here, was someone returning fire from inside the house? Did the attackers enter the house as well?

WAS it an AK that shot him, in 7.62x39? Just about any rifle bullet would produce wounds close to that of the 7.62x39 at that range, even the "anemic" 5.56x45. The round that couldn't break the bottle of Ebola virus. (Sheesh)

"The conclusion that I draw from this is that caliber war debates are pointless."

Hunters have for centuries seen 100 pound deer sustain shots through the heart and lungs, and still run 100 yards before dropping. Yet, they still aim for that area of the body, as head-shots are extremely difficult.

The endless mantra of "shot placement" probably causes as many wounded animals in the woods as just spray-and-pray. It's the same thing in self-defense shootings. People, especially those involved in a gun-fight, are moving unpredictably, and quickly. At the usual ranges of a civilian self-defense scenario (less than 7', semi-darkness, unarmored, and full-frontal shots) hitting is the most important thing that exists for survival. As noted, even a non-lethal shot to the back put the man down. No CNS involvement, no cerebral involvement. Shot placement beyond center-of-mass in such situations quickly devolves into "coulda', woulda', shoulda' territory. There are documented phenomena involving gut shots, neck shots, and other areas of the body that result in incapacitation almost immediately. It DOES NOT have to be instantly lethal to stop a gun-fight. We are NOT in a war zone, where an enemy is never to be left capable of recovering.

"and this unfortunate man was not only able to survive and slowly recover from his wounds he was still able to "fight back" had the need to do so been present. No drugs or alcohol were involved in this story either."

Sorry, but that isn't evident here. He was on the ground, but obviously unable to remove himself from the position. He evidently was in that same position when help arrived. If that is "able to fight back", it's a far different interpretation than others will have.

I'm beginning to think that the minimalist caliber people are becoming more and more desperate to shift the discussion to what they consider a strong-point in their favor. Only in the grossest way does shot placement enter into a self-defense scenario. If it is absolutely a necessity to score CNS hits, or actual cerebral hits, then we're all in trouble. As the majority of homicides don't reflect this, criminals must know something that we're missing.

For decades, schools have been teaching center-of-mass hits to students of the shooting arts. That's not exactly pin-point accuracy. It does, however, win gun-fights. It also takes advantage of the human instinct to throw at the largest part presented. Despite the almost universal assumption that "shot placement" is more easily achieved with smaller calibers, it's also quite possible for normal people to handle larger calibers as effectively. Face it, just because you are a pin-point person with a .22 Long Rifle, hunting a Grizzly, or relying on that caliber in Grizzle territory, is tantamount to suicide.

IF you can place shots into the center-of-mass, you will prevail. IF you can produce head-shots under those same conditions, do so until the Director says "cut".

For myself, the story simply shows the usual effects of traumatic injury to the body. Every one of us has done something to our body that resulted in a "that's going to hurt" moment, just before the pain hit. We are programmed to survive, and will try to do so. Trying to read more into it is simply an exercise in opinion. The victim DIDN'T, apparently, try to move, possibly aggravating his condition, was treated in a timely manner by Advanced Life Support, and was in a hospital well within his Golden Hour. Had ANY of that been altered, we would be talking about a dead man. Lethality is far different than Instant Stopping. Without modern medical intervention, this could well have been lethal, even if it took a while to evidence itself.

Now, replay that scenario using expanding hunting ammo in the rifle, and tell me that he'd have been as capable of the same outcome with the same hits. I'd almost be willing to bet that the 7.62x39, IF that is what it actually was, was FMJ. A simple change to expanding ammunition could have changed this scenario from "poor shot placement" to a lethal encounter. As I said, "coulda', woulda', shoulda'.
 

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Your rambling leaves me wondering what your point was.

Don't care what kind of expanding bullet you were shooting, hits in the meaty part of the thigh will not incapacitate anyone, or stop anything. Don't even have any idea what the rant about "minimalist caliber folks" concerns and really don't care. MY point was if you don't hit where you aim, the size of the bullet is inconsequential. If you can't hit where you aim, the the best magic bullet around is worthless. A high quality expanding bullet might have made a fatal difference on the shot in the back as this shot was actually in a vital area and one that incapacitated the victim, but even that shot was probably luck and not aim, if the vic was close enough to have seen, or more likely heard, the brass falling.

I grew up hunting deer and I have never seen one heart shot go 100 yards. There are many, many stories about soldiers gut shot and continuing to fight for several more hours. Guts shots up to recent wars were almost always fatal, but rarely incapacitating. Center of Mass is what is taught in basic training because that is about as good as a novice shooter can hit. I know I used to run a basic and advanced Infantry training company. In sniper training they don't talk much about COM hits, but concentrate on better shot placement. Again, knowing where to aim and hitting where you aim will trump any magic bullet.

Most hunters don't aim for the head because they don't want to ruin the "trophy" and you are right, most of them could not make the shot anyway. If I wanted to to drop a deer so I don't have to look for it and I'm not worried about ruining the meat, I take it through the shoulders. Without the front legs, they don't go anywhere. I've even knocked out the spine (taking out the rear legs) and seen them drag themselves as far as a half mile, but never with the front legs taken out. The second part of aiming is knowing where to aim on your target and why.

If you look at the statistics from Iraq and Afghanistan, you will see very few gun shot fatalities in Iraq and many more in Afghanistan (at least up until recently). The main reason for that is the Iraqis don't aim and the Afghans do. The Afghans would probably have a much higher hit rate, but they usually engage at about 400 meters and without optics.

When I was 8 years old, I was deer hunting on a stand with my father when a nearby hunter fired at a 6 pointer. That buck was moving full speed when he came by us and all I could see was that white flag as he busted through the brush across our front about 40 yards out. I had a .410 shooting slugs and I drew a bead on the only thing I could see, that flying white tail. I gave him some lead and fired. Immediately there was a burst of white fur and I began jumping up and down that I had hit him. Running to the spot where I had shot him, I was amazed that buck was not there, there was white and brown fur everywhere. After my Dad quit laughing, he explained that it takes more than just hitting your target. You have to know where to hit you target. It was a lesson I have never forgotten.
 
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I'm not entirely sure what the point of this thread is, but I can tell you about being shot, at least with small caliber bullets. In 1972 I was shot in the lower left leg at a distance of about 10 feet. The bullet was a .22LR. It passed through my jeans and stuck in my shinbone buried just a bit past the base of the bullet. I was unarmed at the time. I saw the gun come out of the guys pocket and I saw the muzzle flash as it was dark. I thought he missed. I do not recall hearing the bang. I was in the midst of a bar fight and trying to get people under control. 30 minutes later I noticed my foot seemed to be squishing around in my boot. I was wearing motorcycle boots with tall shanks that came up under my pants leg. As I reached down to pull up my pants leg to remove the boot I realized I was bleeding and the blood was running down my leg and puddling up in my boot. At that point I thought someone either kicked me or hit me on the shin with something. It wasn't until after I drove myself to the ER that I found out I'd been shot. The ER doc removed the bullet, debred the wound, flushed it out, bandaged it up and sent me on my way.

The second time I was shot was a year later in the same bar in another bar fight. This time I was shot in the lower right leg with a .25 caliber bullet from about 15 feet. This time I did not see the gun but I did hear the "pop". The bullet passed through a heavy wool coat worn by a woman standing a bit to my right and then again went through my jeans an hit me in the right shin this time putting a dent in the shin bone and rolling under the skin an inch or so and coming to rest in the tissue under the skin. I felt this one. It felt like some one put a lit cigarette to my skin. It did not stop me or even slow me down. We continued to get the fight under control, and the "problem children" dealt with. It was only then that we started to assess personal damage. This time it was obvious I was bleeding as my pants leg was soaked with blood. One of the bartenders wrapped a bar towel around my leg and tied it tight and I again drove myself to the ER. The doc was able to just push the bullet back out through the hole in my skin and did pretty much the same thing as before only this time he did put a couple of sutures in the skin.

So, I guess the lesson relative to this thread is that just because you've been shot doesn't mean you are incapacitated. My adrenaline was running wide open both times and I was in the middle of a mix up involving a lot of people in a crowded bar. Being shot didn't even register until after things calmed down. I was fortunate that both times I was shot in the legs and I can not answer how it might have been were I shot in the torso. I would like to think if I had been and nothing vital was hit the reaction would have been pretty much the same, but that's a "what if" that didn't happen and I have no way to know the answer with any certainty.

I will say that from a self defense perspective shot placement is everything, regardless of what caliber your gun is. If you need to defend yourself place your shots as best you can in vital areas. I personally ascribe to the concept of two in the chest one in the head and repeat as often as necessary until the threat stops. In any event it won't be pretty, you will very likely take a few lumps or worse yourself, and the entire event will be nothing like you thought it would be.
 

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Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
I posted this article and story because I have seen and heard way too much FUD about 'stopping power' and pistol rounds.

Put simply, stopping power doesn't exist in handheld pistols. Just because someone is shot doesn't mean they are going to stop or die on the spot, whether the weapon used is a .22LR or a .45 ACP. Thus getting into acrimonious debates about caliber effectiveness and Gelatin tests is foolish talk.

What should really be discussed is training techniques, not whether caliber X is better than caliber Y. As the above article proves and the personal accounts of members of this thread show (a sincere thanks to BigSkiff and GreenWolf) merely hitting someone isn't going to stop anything in time to end the fight.

This also brings me to the topic of training and what happens when the lead flies.Shooting to 'wound' or 'incapacitate' isn't possible when the guy in your home at 2am won't even feel the shot at the moment of impact.Many gun owners rightly find the idea of shooting to kill repugnant, but one can be prepared to do no less if the flag flies.While the examples above show people reacting to gunshot wounds who aren't participants themselves, its easy to see that people who are shot are still capable of moving, making decisions, and reacting to the situation. It is not much of a stretch to state that a felon in your house will still be capable of killing you even with multiple bullets in him or her.
 

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This is from a 2007 article by Jill Leovy - a reporter with an agenda. Her accounts have been know to be highly fictionalized.
While her goal is, I think, a good one - she feels that it is unfair that murders of poor black people were not given the same weight as those of rich white people, and she wanted to correct that - I think that depending on those reports for tactical insights is misguided.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
This is from a 2007 article by Jill Leovy - a reporter with an agenda. Her accounts have been know to be highly fictionalized.
While her goal is, I think, a good one - she feels that it is unfair that murders of poor black people were not given the same weight as those of rich white people, and she wanted to correct that - I think that depending on those reports for tactical insights is misguided.
The same could be said of any press reporter on the topic of firearms.

In any instance, the previous story in the series echoes the same trend as before. This victim was hit multiple times in the legs with pistol rounds and still was able to run immediately despite his injuries.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/homicidereport/2007/05/florence_shooti.html
 

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LOL, is there any particular reason they keep shooting you in the shins? But agreed, knowing where to aim and hitting where you aim is the key. 2 to the chest and 1 to the head is a good practice and pretty easy to train yourself up for that.

If you want to read about letting nothing stop you, Google MSG Ray Benevides and read about the action that resulted in his Medal of Honor. I don't remember how many times he was hit but he was bayoneted in both arms and shot in both legs, among his many wounds, and yet he never stopped until the last guy was loaded on the Medevac. He jumped off a hovering Huey hovering 10 feet off the ground, by himself, to rescue a team that had been ambushed by a NVA Battalion, that odds of over 60-1.

I went to a Silver Star ceremony at Fort Bragg in 2008. Third SF Group gave out 19 Silver Stars that day, but the one that sticks in my mind, was the SSG that had his leg blown off shortly after insertion, tied his severed leg to the stump with his boot string, after applying a tourniquet, fought for 6 more hours before climbing down a cliff face to an area where he could be lifted out by helicopter. I think the action happened in April of 2008, the ceremony was in December of 2008 and he walked down the aisle (on an artificial leg) to receive his award without any noticeable limp. This place was full of retired SF types and there wasn't a dry eye in the house after they ran through what had happened on that day.

My own son also received a Silver Star that day for an action in Afghanistan on 2 November 2007. I don't want to go into the details, but only to add some information about what it is like being hit. He had been shot in the face, yet continued to man his MG and provide covering fire until all of his guys were out of the kill zone. He told me that he too, like BigSkiff, did not realize he had been shot at first. It was also the squish in his boots that first alerted him that something was wrong. Manning the gun in the middle of an ambush was drawing all of the enemy's fire, so he didn't notice at first when he was hit in the jaw. He said he never really felt any pain, but he was so afraid that if he let up on that MG the Taliban would shift their fire from him to his exposed guys. When it dawned on him that he had been hit in the head, he wondered if he was already dead and just didn't know it. It was then he said that his life focus came down to suppressing the enemy and drawing their fire until all his guys were safe. He let his anger wash over him and it sustained him until they were finally out of contact.

I have often heard the term "determined enemy" and I think I understand that it really means they refuse to go down, to be thwarted in accomplishing their mission. I think it is what makes man the most dangerous of all God's creatures. That relentless determination to press on in the face of all odds to accomplish a goal, even though he may already know he will not survive, or is already dead.
 

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I've never been shot, but after working in the medical field for 35 years, I have seen a number of people who have been. Almost always they were suprisingly mobil and coherent. Even a guy shot in the foot with a 9mm Glaser, his x-ray looked terrible but he was able to move around. You have to hit something important.
 

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SilverTauron is right about mind set when dealing with an attack. The only way to deal with a "determined enemy" is to be more determined. Trying to use just enough force sounds great in theory but when you finally realize you did not use enough force it is usually too late, for you.

My father used to tell me that you need to kill anyone that invades your home, because dead men can't come back or sue.
 

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"Your rambling leaves me wondering what your point was.

Don't care what kind of expanding bullet you were shooting, hits in the meaty part of the thigh will not incapacitate anyone, or stop anything. Don't even have any idea what the rant about "minimalist caliber folks" concerns and really don't care. MY point was if you don't hit where you aim, the size of the bullet is inconsequential. If you can't hit where you aim, the the best magic bullet around is worthless. A high quality expanding bullet might have made a fatal difference on the shot in the back as this shot was actually in a vital area and one that incapacitated the victim, but even that shot was probably luck and not aim, if the vic was close enough to have seen, or more likely heard, the brass falling."

Did you even read what I posted before trying to insult me? I questioned the sequence of events, and the appearance that something was out of place. Do you have a real motive here, or just acting out?

1) the man says that he was hit from behind as he entered the door way, and feel part-ways into the front room, head-first. There is nothing that says he turned around to look outward, through the door-way. In fact, he says that he just lay there. Short of having a mirror, HOW did he see the "brass casings tumbling"? Is anyone else that dense?

2) IN YOUR OPINION, the shot to the back was "probably luck". Again, there is NOTHING to support such a pompous proclamation. I don't know, and the article didn't provide any information one way or the other.

3)"I grew up hunting deer and I have never seen one heart shot go 100 yards."

I also grew up hunting, in the 50's and 60's, when even the best SP bullets expansion was iffy. I have actually SEEN multiple examples of deer making the 100 yard dash after a heart shot. Please, unless you can present something making you an expert in animal behavior to trauma, lay off the self-aggrandizing commentary.

4)"There are many, many stories about soldiers gut shot and continuing to fight for several more hours. Guts shots up to recent wars were almost always fatal, but rarely incapacitating. Center of Mass is what is taught in basic training because that is about as good as a novice shooter can hit. I know I used to run a basic and advanced Infantry training company. In sniper training they don't talk much about COM hits, but concentrate on better shot placement. Again, knowing where to aim and hitting where you aim will trump any magic bullet."

Here we are. Center-of-mass DOES include the gut, as it usually encompasses the torso. As someone who"used to run a basic and advanced Infantry Training Camp", you should know this, and have never tried to infer that it isn't. We aren't dealing with snipers here, so that was just fluff.

5) Silver Tauron made the comment about caliber, not me. I merely replied, tongue in cheek, at that. Still smarting from the 5.56 thread?

I also question how the 7.62x39 round was identified, as well as the gun it came from. Most rifle shots tear up a similar amount of tissue on the outside of the wound. Unlike the EMTs there, I would NEVER have made such a possibly problematical call, for fear of legal issues. Common sense would also have prevented me from identifying it, as well.

Then, how a man lying on his face, and 180 degrees from the action, watched "brass cases" tumble about also begs the question of was it really a 7.62x39 round. The VAST majority of 7.62x39 cases recovered from criminal violence are composed of steel cased pieces. The VAST majority of criminal use of the AR platform, however, end up with those pesky brass cases. The wounds were also compatible with 5.56 projectiles.

6)"MY point was if you don't hit where you aim, the size of the bullet is inconsequential."

OK, that's profound, but useless. Is there anywhere in the story that talks about how many total rounds were expended? Is there anything in the story that leads us to believe that the man was hit accidentally? I can't find any. I DO find an emphasis on the dramatic, not the technical. Whether the shooters were following approved military marksmanship doctrine, or not, is beyond the scope of the article. This entire diatribe leaves me pointing to the original opening.

"Your rambling leaves me wondering what your point was."

Two men were shot. One was killed. Multiple shots were fired. Distance was unknown, and not stated. Cover, concealment, and actions of the victims were also glossed over in favor of dramatic flair. This isn't a police report, people, but a self-serving journalists report on a SOCIAL problem. Attempting to draw specific conclusion from it is much akin to believing the current POTUS verbatim.
 

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LOL, is there any particular reason they keep shooting you in the shins?
Yeah actually there was a reason. The bar that this happened at was a beer bar in a college town with an 18 years old drinking age. The place just packed people in all night long. I worked there along with a dozen other bouncers. When someone was causing trouble and needed to be removed we would surround the offender from a distance and then move in on him all at the same time. The guy that was first to confront the troublemaker was the guy directly in front of him and being that guy it was my job to get his full attention while the others grabbed him and tossed his drunken butt into the parking lot. Any time a fight breaks out in a bar full of drunken college kids the whole place goes nuts. As the drunk pulled his gun the other guys were jumping on him and in both cases knocked his arm down and probably caused him to shoot as well. So the bullet path was aimed low toward my lower legs in both cases. At any rate I think I got the better end of the deal. Both of those guys got beat pretty bad.
 

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I would expect they would have been arrested too. Still, I think I would have had a discussion with the other bouncers about how to better deal with armed drunks, or at least have someone spell you on point.
 

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This is from a 2007 article by Jill Leovy - a reporter with an agenda. Her accounts have been know to be highly fictionalized.
That's kind of the feeling I had when I read the OP a few days ago - not necessarily that the reporter had an agenda but it seems pretty clear to me that the report has been embellished with what the reporter thinks may have been seen/heard/felt rather than what the victim actually saw/heard/felt.
 

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Ya' know, leading with your legs will result in shootings to the shins. Be glad that it was your shin, and not your face, that was the recipient of a bullet, no matter how "weak". The Army tests reveal that a mere 55 ft/lbs of energy are all that is needed to result in a casualty. Casualty defined as needing more than self-treatment.

The article in question wasn't a police forensics report, as I mentioned. So, drawing any conclusions beyond the simple fact that people were shot is an exercise in futility.
 
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