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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
ok before everybody with zero handloading experience starts yelling NO it cant be done, can some experienced handloaders give me their opinions?
my public defender can chamber 454 casull ammo just fine. obviously i am not shooting it though. i reload 45 colt in a variety of different strengths from mild cowboy to standard factory to wild +P+ for my winchester 1892 rifle and my S&W 460 mag.
my thoughts are since the public defender isnt rated for +P it would be safer to use the longer and stronger 454 casull brass for some moderately +P handloads as opposed to standard 45lc brass. theory being that the longer brass gives larger volume and thus lower pressures than what the same load of powder would make in 45lc brass. also the stronger thicker brass would safely hold a higher pressure than the 45lc brass would.
so what do the experienced handloaders think?
i am not thinking of wild corbon +P 325gr 1300fps loads like ive seen some people put through the public defender on youtube. more like 250gr at 1000-1100fps.
 

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you load any bullet in a .454 brass case, doesn't it make it a .454?

I don't know,,,,just asking...........
 

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Without getting into a long explanation the type of brass does not change the pressure rating of the gun. Taurus rate of pressure for the regular Judge is 45 Colt standard loads. The chamber in the Judge cylinder should be cut so the 454 brass does not fit deep enough to let cylinder close. The chamber pressure of the 454 can exceed 65,000 psi, and is why the Judge chambers are cut to 45 colt length. The 410 shells are not stopped by it. As for pressure the 45 colt brass built by Starline is used in 5 shot custom revolver loads at pressure beyond Ruger only loads. People get away with running loads in Judges the guns are not designed to shoot but it will shorten the life of the gun. I have looked a few Judge revolvers that have had the chamber mouth cut/polished/removed and 460 brass would fit. That doesn't add to pressure rating of cylinder and opens door for a really deadly explosion should cylinder come apart. For example a person to the side can be hit with flying metal. In hand loading seating a bullet shallow can reduce pressure. It can also cause powder to not burn if bullet leaves case mouth to quickly. Reason some loads require seating depth of specs and heavy crimp is to give proper powder burn. Loads are given in detail because when things are changed results change. Years ago we destroyed some guns in testing. Some could take multiple above proof loads without coming apart. Some came apart on first shot. You are getting into something that wisdom would avoid when going over factory rating.
 

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I wouldn't advise it. The round might chamber, but may not open up enough to release the bullet as you could be in the throat section of the chamber. The casing is .1" longer. Pressures will sky-rocket.

However, there are hot .45 Colt loading data. I load both, but most of the time I actually shoot hot .45 Colt loads out of my Super Redhawk. Starline brass is pretty good for developing hot .45 Colt loads.

Maloy
 

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TheOldRedneck is spot on here. Is it possible? Sure, ya can make anything happen. Is it advisable? Not for me!!

I like the idea of "heating up" some 45lc rounds.
 

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The extra capacity of the 454 brass will change the chamber pressure of whatever hand load data you're using. Whether it moves up or down requires more math than I've used in four decades or so, but I wouldn't advise just using generic load data without the calculations first.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
theoldredneck- good point about the fired case mouth size. i will fire some 454 in my 460 and then see if the fired cases will also chamber like the unfired rounds do. yes aware of seating depths and crimp strengths effect burn, especially on powders like H110. was going to crimp in cannalure in the longer brass.
CJS3 - the small % increase in case volume would almost certainly create a decrease in pressure. its not until you get really low volume magnum powders in high volume cases that you get the chance of an increased pressure or a secondary explosive effect. after all when people first started hotloading 38 special and 44 special they lengthened the cases a small amount to create 357mag and 44mag to reduce excessive pressures.
any other thoughts?
 

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There's a rimmed rifle round, European, 9.3x63 or something, can't remember, but some TC Contender loaders use it to eliminate the free bore, the jump of the bullet from brass to rifling, and thus improve accuracy of the .410/.45 colt barrel. I have this info stored on my other computer, I THINK, and found the brass at Midway USA, but never ordered it since to fix the accuracy of that barrel for hunting, I just bought a .30-30 barrel and was done with it. :rofl: Have killed 5 deer with that barrel since then. I use the .410 now for bopping around in my woods. It has taken rabbit, squirrel, even doves in season, that I stumble in to.
 

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theoldredneck- good point about the fired case mouth size. i will fire some 454 in my 460 and then see if the fired cases will also chamber like the unfired rounds do. yes aware of seating depths and crimp strengths effect burn, especially on powders like H110. was going to crimp in cannalure in the longer brass.
CJS3 - the small % increase in case volume would almost certainly create a decrease in pressure. its not until you get really low volume magnum powders in high volume cases that you get the chance of an increased pressure or a secondary explosive effect. after all when people first started hotloading 38 special and 44 special they lengthened the cases a small amount to create 357mag and 44mag to reduce excessive pressures.
any other thoughts?
What? The .38 and .44, when Smith and Wesson developed the magnum, lengthened the case to eliminate the possibility some moron would chamber a factory magnum case in a Smith and Wesson .38 victory model or something not even close to capable of containing the pressure. Handloaders didn't do it, the factories did!
 
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Part of the idea of the brass case is for it to expand when fired and seal the chamber.
As something to add actual strength to a revolver cylinder, using a slightly stronger case,
I wouldn't bet on it. The thicker 454 Casull case might make it take a few more PSI but I
don't think it would give it 5% more.

I always wonder why people buy pop-guns then want to turn them into howitzers. If they want something
to shoot hot 45 Colt loads they should go buy a Ruger that's made for it.

See this all the time with people wanting to turn .40 S&W pistols into 10mm's. Good way to kaboom! them.

All the Best,
D. White
 
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What? The .38 and .44, when Smith and Wesson developed the magnum, lengthened the case to eliminate the possibility some moron would chamber a factory magnum case in a Smith and Wesson .38 victory model or something not even close to capable of containing the pressure. Handloaders didn't do it, the factories did!
BTW, I was that moron one morning. :rofl: I was getting dressed, decided I wanted to carry my 3" 66 that morning, reached into my gun safe and grabbed it "I thought" and tried to load it. The rounds wouldn't go all the way in. So, here, I'm thinkin' I screwed something up reloading 'em, then I notice, it wasn't my 66 I'd grabbed, but my S&W M10. :rolleyes: In my defense, I hadn't had my coffee that morning. :rofl: But, I'm sure glad those Smith and Wesson engineers thought about me when they developed the .357 Magnum. :D
 
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45 Colt is a low pressure round - 14,000 psi iirc.
You have a big hammer in the Ruger you mention. Enjoy it.

Old adage: buy the gun that best fits your intended use.
There are Judges that can handle the pressure - if you really want to shoot whup-ass out of a Judge, it might be time to trade up.
 

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I'm looking at the Hodgdon Reloading Data.

.45 LC top PSI = 14,000 CUP (Most Weapons)
.45 LC top PSI = 30,400 (Ruger, Freedom Arms & TC Only)
454 Casull PSI = 53,700 CUP

With any reloading commonsense and and attention to detail are critical. My engineering training and experience is basic. Loading should be done at the lower level for a standard .45 LC. Few of us have the engineering data in front of us for the weapons we own. Better to be safe than have a destroyed weapon and put photos of a destroyed weapon on a site.

* PSI= -17,902 + 1.516 x CUP
https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf
 

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I reload .45 Colt from mild to wild. However, my practice and plinking loads are either 200 grain SWC or FRN in lead. Any jacketed round I reload are SD or hunting loads. I have several .45 Colt handguns, but the two modern ones I have is a Taurus RB in .45 Colt and a Ruger SRH in .454.

That's how I keep things separate for mild vs wild. It also helps that the hot ones are only loaded on my single stage, and plinking loads on the progressive. I did check my Bond Arms a little bit ago, it will chamber .454 as well fired or empty since the chambers can use .410 like the Public Defender. However, that means I have to be extra careful not to mix up the ammo. A .454 will not chamber in my .45 RB which is a comfort.

So as long as your loadings are .45 colt equivalent then the .454 brass would give better life. However, if you don't a have .454 or have brass for one, I'd stick with .45 Colt. The brass is cheaper in bulk and a lot of custom ammo companies use Starline for their +P and hunting loads.

Maloy
 

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I'm looking at the Hodgdon Reloading Data.

.45 LC top PSI = 14,000 CUP (Most Weapons)
.45 LC top PSI = 30,400 (Ruger, Freedom Arms & TC Only)
454 Casull PSI = 53,700 CUP

With any reloading commonsense and and attention to detail are critical. My engineering training and experience is basic. Loading should be done at the lower level for a standard .45 LC. Few of us have the engineering data in front of us for the weapons we own. Better to be safe than have a destroyed weapon and put photos of a destroyed weapon on a site.

* PSI= -17,902 + 1.516 x CUP
https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf
Hmm, that's 5,000 PSI above what I've seen in SAAMI data for the "Ruger Only" loads. Maybe they've raised that a bit?

I have a Ruger .45 Blackhawk and a TC Contender with a .45/.410 barrel. These are my only .45 colts so I have little risk of getting one of my hot loads in the wrong gun. I really don't like shooting those hot loads, anyway, rough on the hand. But, I have a box loaded up just in case I decide to go walk with the bears or something. :laugh: I changed my recipe and it has significant more recoil. I'm wondering if that data was using a new PSI limit, 30,400 psi? My old load used 2400, new load uses Li'l Gun. The old load chronographs rather light compared to Buffalo Bore and such, around 850 ft lbs for a 300 grain XTP from the 4 5/8" barrel. The Li'l Gun load pushes just over 1000 ft lbs from the same gun. AND, this is NOT the heaviest load in the book for that powder, actually the STARTING load. I didn't figure I needed to go hotter, was already testing my recoil tolerance. :laugh: I'd thought it was just the powder which significantly performs better in .357, also, especially in rifles. It has a slower burn. But, I'm now thinkin' that load data may have been at the higher pressure. I got the data from Hodgon, too, being as they make Li'l Gun. Hmmm.....
 

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I think most of the strength of the 454 Case would be in the web and base of the cartridge. Since the bullet is the same diameter for both then the case mouth will be about the same thickness. The Casull uses small rifle primers but I don't think that would make much difference in strength. Working in a gun shop I've seen my fair share of blown up guns and more that a few were Judges. I don't think any guns of this type Taurus or S&W revolvers are made to handle much pressure so I wouldn't push it. If you want to shoot hot loads then think about buying a Ruger.
Good Luck
 
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Stroker said,,,,"I have no answer but welcome to the forum and explain you handle "

Say what? Ive been here for seven years. What is "explain you handle"?
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
What? The .38 and .44, when Smith and Wesson developed the magnum, lengthened the case to eliminate the possibility some moron would chamber a factory magnum case in a Smith and Wesson .38 victory model or something not even close to capable of containing the pressure. Handloaders didn't do it, the factories did!
native texan. yes it was lengthened to stop 357 mag going into a 38 special. what i was refering to was when elmer keith (a single man, a handloader you could say) was developing very hot 38 special loads in 38 special cases as the immediate precursor to the 357 mag. the 357 mag was then developed with a slightly longer and stronger case to handle the powder charge safely. elmer keith basically did all the work and the S&W factory developed the cartridge and made a cylinder for their larger frame revolvers to fit it.
may not be 100% accurate so dont quote me as it has been a couple of years since i read of elmer keiths work.
 
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