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Recently I learned about the Lehigh/Underwood extreme defender/ penetrator ammo. Who here has used it or carries this and what is your opinion on it?
 

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A temporary stretch cavity in Jello will not make me switch over from a good hollow point.

If and when documented stops start showing up I wont even consider them.
 

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To me, it seems like the perfect ammunition to defend yourself against ballistic gel. Not as bad as that RIP ammo foolishness, but it doesn't interest me.

I think there are companies and consumers who forget that ballistic gel is a tool for getting repeatable analytical results. It's not a body. The biggest issue is that bodies have bones. I've never seen a test of this stuff that included bones. This ammo has to be rotating on axis to produce the hydroscopic effects they designed it for. Will it keep rotating on axis like that after a glancing blow off bone? Or even after going straight through a bone plate like the sternum? Personally, I doubt it. If I want extreme penetration, I'll save a ton of money and get the gold standard in reliability by using good old FMJ.
 

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What caliber are we Talking ? 380 or 9? For Me any Good XTP in 380 will work , for 9, any good JHP, personal preferences are yours,
 

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I use Federal Premium HST JHP ammo for my 9s and .45 cal .
For the .380 TCP I use Federal Premium Hydra-Shok HPs . That I think is good enough to stop anybody at close range .
 

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They make good ammo, I have bought their FMJ and JHP for the 9mm, .38 Super, .45 acp, and .357 Sig. But they have raised their prices, and moved from my birth state of West Virginia to Illinois.
 

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I have been carrying the Xtreme Defender in 9mm standard (Underwood) pressure for several years. I know people think it is a novelty and will not perform well in real world situations, and they cite the fact that gel tests do not tell effectiveness of the bullet will be when it encounters flesh and bone. Indeed gel tests are just ways to compare penetration and nothing more. The 9mm consistently penetrates within the FBI standard 12 to 18 inched regardless of barrier. It can never fail to expand and have reduced penetration. And we all know that penetration is more important than expansion. (Don’t we?).

Now there are two videos on YouTube showing of the rounds effect on flesh and bone. I have linked to the videos below. The Paul Harrel review compare it to HP and RIP bullets using his “meat target.” The other review show the effect of it whe. Shooting a deal hog with a shoulder through both lungs into the opposite shoulder. It destroys muscle, lmugs, and bones.

This is the hog video. Skip to 3 to avoid a wait.

This is the Harrel video. Good to watch the whol vid but you can FF to demo shooting.
 

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While I don't necessarily doubt that the effectiveness of Xtreme Penetrators or ARX Inceptors in Ballistics Gel translates over 1:1 to that of actual flesh, (I've seen the results when used for hunting and it looks downright gruesome, but then again, that was with .44 Magnum and .223 Remington, IIRC, which tend to do a number against flesh to begin with.) I feel that using them at this time is something of a liability for the following reasons...

  • Reliability. Due to the unusual shape of the bullets, I have concerns over how reliably they would feed in autoloaders, and due to the high cost, testing them to confirm reliability would be very expensive, which in turn could encourage you to test them less thoroughly than you would other ammo.
  • Capability. While these new designs are impressive, I fail to see what they offer over conventional hollow point bullets that would justify their price tag. Based on what I've seen, they seem to beget similar effectiveness compared to JHPs, so what's the incentive to carry them over more conventional ammo?
  • Legal Liability. While I typically don't subscribe to the rationality that use of certain types of ammo or firearms should be avoided due to the possibility that it could be painted in a negative light in court should you have to use it in self-defense, (prosecutors are likely to try this regardless of what you carry, IMO) bullets such as these are an exception due to how new they are. We all remember Winchester Black Talons, right? Well, these bullets could very well end up demonized as well.
  • Accountability. Let's face it, if these bullets are everything they appear to be based on Ballistics Gel Tests, then it's only a matter of time before they are adopted by Military/Law Enforcement across the globe, decrease in price, and ultimately replace JHPs, ergo it you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by holding off on adopting this ammo, especially when you consider the aforementioned factors I listed above.

I myself actually own a full box of Polycase ARX Inceptors in .380 ACP which I received from my brother because they just wouldn't feed in his Taurus TCP-738, which I have yet to even test out just yet because I'm already satisfied with my current carry ammo, Hornady American Gunner XTPs, and the more I think about it the less of a reason I have to begin using them over something which I have already confirmed to be reliable.
 

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While I don't necessarily doubt that the effectiveness of Xtreme Penetrators or ARX Inceptors in Ballistics Gel translates over 1:1 to that of actual flesh, (I've seen the results when used for hunting and it looks downright gruesome, but then again, that was with .44 Magnum and .223 Remington, IIRC, which tend to do a number against flesh to begin with.) I feel that using them at this time is something of a liability for the following reasons...

  • Reliability. Due to the unusual shape of the bullets, I have concerns over how reliably they would feed in autoloaders, and due to the high cost, testing them to confirm reliability would be very expensive, which in turn could encourage you to test them less thoroughly than you would other ammo.
  • Capability. While these new designs are impressive, I fail to see what they offer over conventional hollow point bullets that would justify their price tag. Based on what I've seen, they seem to beget similar effectiveness compared to JHPs, so what's the incentive to carry them over more conventional ammo?
  • Legal Liability. While I typically don't subscribe to the rationality that use of certain types of ammo or firearms should be avoided due to the possibility that it could be painted in a negative light in court should you have to use it in self-defense, (prosecutors are likely to try this regardless of what you carry, IMO) bullets such as these are an exception due to how new they are. We all remember Winchester Black Talons, right? Well, these bullets could very well end up demonized as well.
  • Accountability. Let's face it, if these bullets are everything they appear to be based on Ballistics Gel Tests, then it's only a matter of time before they are adopted by Military/Law Enforcement across the globe, decrease in price, and ultimately replace JHPs, ergo it you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by holding off on adopting this ammo, especially when you consider the aforementioned factors I listed above.

I myself actually own a full box of Polycase ARX Inceptors in .380 ACP which I received from my brother because they just wouldn't feed in his Taurus TCP-738, which I have yet to even test out just yet because I'm already satisfied with my current carry ammo, Hornady American Gunner XTPs, and the more I think about it the less of a reason I have to begin using them over something which I have already confirmed to be reliable.

I answer in the same same order as you wrote.

There are numerous test of the bullet in a variety of calibers on YouTube. None of of the reviewers have posted a failure of any kind. I practice with my carry round, the 9mm Xtreme Defender in addition to FMJ. I have shot ten 20round boxes of the ammo at the range in the past two years. Never had a failure to feed, eject, or fire with the Lc9s, SD9VE, or the G2C.


The two videos I posted clearly demonstrate that the bullets do at least as much damage as JHP, but they do not risk under penetration as JHP does when it expands on hitting barriers or bone.


All bullets are lethal. The JHP is today’s killer bullet in prosecutors minds. Your scenario is much more likely to happen if you load JHP. In NJ if you have and expanding round in your weapon you have committed a felony crime. Not so with the sold, non expanding Xtreme Defender. There are other states where HP is outlawed.


The military and law enforcement are a long time away from adopting such bullets. They contract for ammo in multi million dollar amounts. Underwood could not even consider fulfilling that kind of volume. The FBI just co tracked for 19 million dollars for Hornady ammo. The FBI went to Glocks rather than Sigs. Why? Think lowest bidder.

As for ARX it has proven to be barrier sensitive. It’s compsite bullet shatters against some barriers that Xtreme Defender will smash through.

In the end end we all have to choose the ammo we think best. I did that based upon a lot of research including reading Gunshot Wounds by the notes Dr. Vincent Di Maio, a forensic pathologist with over 9,000 gunshot wound autopsies to his credit. He clearly states that penetration kills and expansion doesn’t as well as noting that it is impossible to tell what king of bullet was used just by looking at the wound channel. He says FMJ does as much damage as JHP and penetrates better. He expresses concern over FMJ over-penetration. Well 9mm Xtreme defender does not over-penetrate. I trust my the Underwood round.


 
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well the old Prosecutors will fry you IF you-- is much over rated and false old wives tale that floats around when projectiles are discussed.
In a good shooting in this area I know of no such thing ever happening.
did it ever?? possibly but certainly not commonly.
hell prosecutors have a hard enough time winning a case against a known criminal that's committed a crime with a gun.
same as the JHP is known as the killer bullet??
really seems odd as that what MOST police departments use?
projectile selection is a person to person decision and honestly I don't think any one magic projectile of modern design is that much better than any other modern self defense projectile. generally a good way to decide exactly what is what ask yourself-- so what are the law enforcement guys using?
I think Gold Dot and XTP is the most used ammo by law enforcement, but I could be wrong.
Myself I have a variety of different self defense loads in my guns, I know that I have Gold dot, XTP, hydra-shok, golden sabre and all copper hp.
and they are all reloads---OPPS there we go in trouble with the prosecutor again.
use what makes you feel all warm and fuzzy.
and don't move to New Jersey.
 

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The purpose of bullet penetration is to reach vital organs. The purpose of expansion is to create tissue damage. Death by gunshot is primarily the significant loss of blood.

Earlier in this thread I reported using the ammo in question. Since I have never shot anyone, or known anyone who has been shot, I can only go by what makes sense. As to hollow points, I think they have a definite advantage if your targets are naked, since the hollow part of the bullet often gets filled with clothing material and renders the bullet "not hollow".

To be honest, I am still good with FMJ for self defense, but the Underwood and similar bullets add something that neither FMJ or JHP can offer. One last thing is that these copper bullets are lighter and faster than a traditional bullet. Recoil is less and follow up shots easier, IMHO.
 

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well as always there are plus and minus to the discussion.
the reason that a hollow point is more desirable generally than a fmj, RN, etc is that first penetration is better controlled, lets remember that the FBI test are conducted with shots that may hit the arm, trying to enter the chest from the side and has to go through the arm, the ribs and rach internal organs that are deeper in the body.
so if thats the shot that you think you will be confronted with then so be it.
secondly the modern hollow point opens up and creates sharp petals that slice arteries and organs, its not slick and smooth.
thats where you get the bleeidng from.
the inner body geneally operates just like the outer skin in trying to seal and stop bleeding, is a razor slice or a cut with a jagged piece of glass going to bleed the most and for how long?
the modern whiz bang super duper non expanding projectiels give up the advantage of being larger diameter to have more chance of hitting/ nicking an artery or organ.
of course Gel Block and water filled milk jugs generally don't bleed, which as mentioned is the largest reason for death and unconsciousness in humans.
again we all make our own choices.
 

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THE myth about JHP ammo has been dispelled by Dr. Vincent Di Maio wh is a noted forensic pathologist and ballistic wound expert. He has performed more thaautopsies on wound victims. He is the author of Gunshot Wounds, which is the bible for gunshot wound forensic analysis. I read the page book as part of my research on what ammo to carry in my G2C. His chapter on handgun ammo was enlightening as he writes clearly about FMJ and JHP. This what he wrote.

There is no objective proof that in real-life situations mushrooming of a bullet plays a significant role in increasing lethality or the “stopping power” of the bullet.

There are a number of myths about hollow-point handgun ammunition which tend to impart a bad reputation to this type of ammunition. First, it should be said that hollow-point bullets do not mutilate organs or destroy them any more than their solid-nose, all-lead counterparts of the same cal- iber. The wounds in the skin, as well as those in the internal organs, are the same in appearance and extent for both types of ammunition. One cannot examine the wounds in a body and say that the individual was shot with a hollow-point rather than a solid-lead bullet. No organs are reduced to a “chopped meat” by a handgun bullet.
Di Mi Maio goes on explain how premature HP expansion upon encountering a barrier like bone reduces penetration, which he clearly states is the most important factor in an incapacitating wound. He also writes about HP clogged by clothing penetration can over penetrates like FMJ might. Basically he is saying that neither ammo is ideal and basically produce the same wound result.

Underwood Xtreme Defender 90 grain 9mm ammo has shown in Gel tests to meet the FBI standard of 12 to 18 inches of penetration through a variety of barriers. Military Arms Channel on YouTube has several videos demonstrating that. The two videos I posted above also offer proof of the bullets effectiveness, and and one compare it to JHP and RIP. It wins.
 

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Not going to get into a debate, carry what you want--BUT anyone that says a projectile with an expanded diameter of say 70-80 caliber has no better chance of clipping an organ or a artery than a 40 caliber slug can't do math.
no one (at least me said anything about disintergrating and organ or artery) , I said to cut an artery or organ which generally takes a pretty sharp jagged edge to do this.
try taking one of the projectiles that you use and rub it hard across your arm, then take a well expanded modern hollow point and rub it across your arm.
 

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Not going to get into a debate, carry what you want--BUT anyone that says a projectile with an expanded diameter of say 70-80 caliber has no better chance of clipping an organ or a artery than a 40 caliber slug can't do math.
no one (at least me said anything about disintergrating and organ or artery) , I said to cut an artery or organ which generally takes a pretty sharp jagged edge to do this.
try taking one of the projectiles that you use and rub it hard across your arm, then take a well expanded modern hollow point and rub it across your arm.
OK so you are suggesting that Vincent DiMaio, an expert forensic pathologist is wrong. He has 9,000+ autopsied on wound victims. I suspect that is 9000 + more than you have done. If you want to really understand gunshot wounds read his book, Gunshot Wounds, which is the leading authoritative treatise in ballistic wounds.

You have described a scraping force doing more damage with JHP than FMJ. Fact it sate there are only three causes of damage from bullets.

1. Hydrostatic damage which is caused by a force by the energy of the bullet that is enough to disable and organ or rupture a blood vessel. No handgun bullet can achieve the velocity/weight needed to do that. Only rifleammo can do it and it takes a powerful caliber will do it.

2.Blunt force damage which all ammunition delivers. Again this is a product of bullet weight and velocity. Expanded diameter doe not I crease bullet weight or velocity. In fact it can slow down bullet velocity. Blunt force damage is simply a product of bullet energy upon striking the target’s interior. Buklets do not cut or scrape tissue, organs, veins, etc. They crush them. Di Maio states that it is impossible to to tell what kind of bullet did the damage unless you find the bullet or fragments of it.

3. Fluid transfer energy which is force being directed perpendicular to the bullet path. JHP will upon expansion have more fluid transfer force than FMJ, which puts all its energy forward. The JHP expansion does direct force laterally as well as forward

The Lehigh Extreme Defens bullet being used by Underwood and some other boutique ammo makers employs blunt force and fluid transfer. The bullet, no matter whose cartridge it is pressed into, spins at roughly 60,000 RPM in travel. Of course the skin is reduced upon target contact, but it is not eliminated. The bullets design, look like a Philliphead screwdriver end that has had the point blunted flat is what creates the fluid transfer. As the bullet’s blunt force energy occurs it turns tissue into a gelatinous form. The spinning bullet’s flutes force that material outward from the path of the bullet. That material is under high pressure from the rotation. That pressure increase the size of the would channel. Imagine if your FMJ nad a power washer inside of it firing a high pressure stream into,the area sittounding ( not in the oat of) the bullet. If you can imagine that then you know what Underwood Xtreme Defender does.
 

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OK so you are suggesting that Vincent DiMaio, an expert forensic pathologist is wrong. He has 9,000+ autopsied on wound victims. I suspect that is 9000 + more than you have done. If you want to really understand gunshot wounds read his book, Gunshot Wounds, which is the leading authoritative treatise in ballistic wounds.

You have described a scraping force doing more damage with JHP than FMJ. Fact it sate there are only three causes of damage from bullets.

1. Hydrostatic damage which is caused by a force by the energy of the bullet that is enough to disable and organ or rupture a blood vessel. No handgun bullet can achieve the velocity/weight needed to do that. Only rifleammo can do it and it takes a powerful caliber will do it.

2.Blunt force damage which all ammunition delivers. Again this is a product of bullet weight and velocity. Expanded diameter doe not I crease bullet weight or velocity. In fact it can slow down bullet velocity. Blunt force damage is simply a product of bullet energy upon striking the target’s interior. Buklets do not cut or scrape tissue, organs, veins, etc. They crush them. Di Maio states that it is impossible to to tell what kind of bullet did the damage unless you find the bullet or fragments of it.

3. Fluid transfer energy which is force being directed perpendicular to the bullet path. JHP will upon expansion have more fluid transfer force than FMJ, which puts all its energy forward. The JHP expansion does direct force laterally as well as forward

The Lehigh Extreme Defens bullet being used by Underwood and some other boutique ammo makers employs blunt force and fluid transfer. The bullet, no matter whose cartridge it is pressed into, spins at roughly 60,000 RPM in travel. Of course the skin is reduced upon target contact, but it is not eliminated. The bullets design, look like a Philliphead screwdriver end that has had the point blunted flat is what creates the fluid transfer. As the bullet’s blunt force energy occurs it turns tissue into a gelatinous form. The spinning bullet’s flutes force that material outward from the path of the bullet. That material is under high pressure from the rotation. That pressure increase the size of the would channel. Imagine if your FMJ nad a power washer inside of it firing a high pressure stream into,the area sittounding ( not in the oat of) the bullet. If you can imagine that then you know what Underwood Xtreme Defender does.
I would say that, yes. If your caliber and projectile is minimal, you might need to worry about penetration with a .25 caliber 60 grain JHP for instance, or even a .32. .380 is marginal IMHO. But, if you're shooting a 158 grain JHP from a .38, a 185 grain JHP from a .45, I don't think there's much to worry about. Penetration on a human torso is a given unless they're wearing kevlar.
 
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