Recently I learned about the Lehigh/Underwood extreme defender/ penetrator ammo. Who here has used it or carries this and what is your opinion on it?
While I don't necessarily doubt that the effectiveness of Xtreme Penetrators or ARX Inceptors in Ballistics Gel translates over 1:1 to that of actual flesh, (I've seen the results when used for hunting and it looks downright gruesome, but then again, that was with .44 Magnum and .223 Remington, IIRC, which tend to do a number against flesh to begin with.) I feel that using them at this time is something of a liability for the following reasons...
- Reliability. Due to the unusual shape of the bullets, I have concerns over how reliably they would feed in autoloaders, and due to the high cost, testing them to confirm reliability would be very expensive, which in turn could encourage you to test them less thoroughly than you would other ammo.
- Capability. While these new designs are impressive, I fail to see what they offer over conventional hollow point bullets that would justify their price tag. Based on what I've seen, they seem to beget similar effectiveness compared to JHPs, so what's the incentive to carry them over more conventional ammo?
- Legal Liability. While I typically don't subscribe to the rationality that use of certain types of ammo or firearms should be avoided due to the possibility that it could be painted in a negative light in court should you have to use it in self-defense, (prosecutors are likely to try this regardless of what you carry, IMO) bullets such as these are an exception due to how new they are. We all remember Winchester Black Talons, right? Well, these bullets could very well end up demonized as well.
- Accountability. Let's face it, if these bullets are everything they appear to be based on Ballistics Gel Tests, then it's only a matter of time before they are adopted by Military/Law Enforcement across the globe, decrease in price, and ultimately replace JHPs, ergo it you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by holding off on adopting this ammo, especially when you consider the aforementioned factors I listed above.
I myself actually own a full box of Polycase ARX Inceptors in .380 ACP which I received from my brother because they just wouldn't feed in his Taurus TCP-738, which I have yet to even test out just yet because I'm already satisfied with my current carry ammo, Hornady American Gunner XTPs, and the more I think about it the less of a reason I have to begin using them over something which I have already confirmed to be reliable.
Di Mi Maio goes on explain how premature HP expansion upon encountering a barrier like bone reduces penetration, which he clearly states is the most important factor in an incapacitating wound. He also writes about HP clogged by clothing penetration can over penetrates like FMJ might. Basically he is saying that neither ammo is ideal and basically produce the same wound result.There is no objective proof that in real-life situations mushrooming of a bullet plays a significant role in increasing lethality or the “stopping power” of the bullet.
There are a number of myths about hollow-point handgun ammunition which tend to impart a bad reputation to this type of ammunition. First, it should be said that hollow-point bullets do not mutilate organs or destroy them any more than their solid-nose, all-lead counterparts of the same cal- iber. The wounds in the skin, as well as those in the internal organs, are the same in appearance and extent for both types of ammunition. One cannot examine the wounds in a body and say that the individual was shot with a hollow-point rather than a solid-lead bullet. No organs are reduced to a “chopped meat” by a handgun bullet.
OK so you are suggesting that Vincent DiMaio, an expert forensic pathologist is wrong. He has 9,000+ autopsied on wound victims. I suspect that is 9000 + more than you have done. If you want to really understand gunshot wounds read his book, Gunshot Wounds, which is the leading authoritative treatise in ballistic wounds.Not going to get into a debate, carry what you want--BUT anyone that says a projectile with an expanded diameter of say 70-80 caliber has no better chance of clipping an organ or a artery than a 40 caliber slug can't do math.
no one (at least me said anything about disintergrating and organ or artery) , I said to cut an artery or organ which generally takes a pretty sharp jagged edge to do this.
try taking one of the projectiles that you use and rub it hard across your arm, then take a well expanded modern hollow point and rub it across your arm.
I would say that, yes. If your caliber and projectile is minimal, you might need to worry about penetration with a .25 caliber 60 grain JHP for instance, or even a .32. .380 is marginal IMHO. But, if you're shooting a 158 grain JHP from a .38, a 185 grain JHP from a .45, I don't think there's much to worry about. Penetration on a human torso is a given unless they're wearing kevlar.I
OK so you are suggesting that Vincent DiMaio, an expert forensic pathologist is wrong. He has 9,000+ autopsied on wound victims. I suspect that is 9000 + more than you have done. If you want to really understand gunshot wounds read his book, Gunshot Wounds, which is the leading authoritative treatise in ballistic wounds.
You have described a scraping force doing more damage with JHP than FMJ. Fact it sate there are only three causes of damage from bullets.
1. Hydrostatic damage which is caused by a force by the energy of the bullet that is enough to disable and organ or rupture a blood vessel. No handgun bullet can achieve the velocity/weight needed to do that. Only rifleammo can do it and it takes a powerful caliber will do it.
2.Blunt force damage which all ammunition delivers. Again this is a product of bullet weight and velocity. Expanded diameter doe not I crease bullet weight or velocity. In fact it can slow down bullet velocity. Blunt force damage is simply a product of bullet energy upon striking the target’s interior. Buklets do not cut or scrape tissue, organs, veins, etc. They crush them. Di Maio states that it is impossible to to tell what kind of bullet did the damage unless you find the bullet or fragments of it.
3. Fluid transfer energy which is force being directed perpendicular to the bullet path. JHP will upon expansion have more fluid transfer force than FMJ, which puts all its energy forward. The JHP expansion does direct force laterally as well as forward
The Lehigh Extreme Defens bullet being used by Underwood and some other boutique ammo makers employs blunt force and fluid transfer. The bullet, no matter whose cartridge it is pressed into, spins at roughly 60,000 RPM in travel. Of course the skin is reduced upon target contact, but it is not eliminated. The bullets design, look like a Philliphead screwdriver end that has had the point blunted flat is what creates the fluid transfer. As the bullet’s blunt force energy occurs it turns tissue into a gelatinous form. The spinning bullet’s flutes force that material outward from the path of the bullet. That material is under high pressure from the rotation. That pressure increase the size of the would channel. Imagine if your FMJ nad a power washer inside of it firing a high pressure stream into,the area sittounding ( not in the oat of) the bullet. If you can imagine that then you know what Underwood Xtreme Defender does.