Taurus Firearm Forum banner

1 - 20 of 34 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,168 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Saw this on Front Sight's member only forum and thought I'd share and open the discussion here.

I know we have many people from the Military and Law Enforcement here that this may not apply, but for those of us who do not have direct combat experience this is something to think about.

"Thought I would start a new thread here - to address an issue that has long been a concern for me.

Remember the FS lecture about the 4 (5) levels of competence. In that lecture, it was mainly about weapons handling and basic tactics. And most of us have reached a level of consciously competent, and maybe even unconsciously competent.

However - there is a another area that we often forget. Being CC or UC with a weapon system is NOT the same as being CC or UC in combat. Often, we believe that we are CC or UC with our gun we somehow know about combat. We are Unconsciously Incompetent in this regard.

Very few people in the world are CC or UC in firearms combat. I perhaps have met only 4 or 5. You might be able to shoot more accurately than them, faster than them, and clear any malfunction better than them. But they will most likely put you down in any gunfight.

Skill at weapons handling and shooting does not equate skill at gun fighting.

This is one reason why those who know are sometimes very dogmatic about some techniques, skills, or equipment. It may sound good to you in some magazine, or on the range, or on the internet, but as the lecture goes - it will be too late and happen very quickly when you find out you are really a UI when the flash of the opponent's muzzle happens.

Be aware of your CI (conscious incompetence) when it comes to gun fighting. Sit down, watch, listen, and learn from those who do know - and if they say something about some technique, skill or equipment that you disagree with - first ask yourself on what real knowledge are you basing your disagreement on?"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,464 Posts
Good things to think about. Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,614 Posts
Good points! Good, timely post!
 

·
Member Emeritus 1946-2018
Joined
·
35,996 Posts
Respectfully, I couldn't make a whole lot of sense out of the article.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,152 Posts
I have military experience but no combat experience. We did controlled live fire training but that is nothing compared to combat and I have no illusions about how capable I am because of my training but lack of experience.

There is a very big difference between knowing the path and walking the path.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,203 Posts
I have combat experience. But twin 50's off the back of a PBR at a target you can barely identify is a little different than up close and personal. Competence with a fire arm is one thing. The will and ability to use it in a stressful situation is entirely another. I think some people have a tendency to confuse or even meld instinct and training. Instinct sharpens training - not the other way around. Just my two cents.
 
  • Like
Reactions: btleslie

·
Moderator in Memorium 1940-2014
Joined
·
13,540 Posts
All the "skill" in the world won't do one a bit of good if one does not have the "will" to put it to use.
Seems to me this would be the "will to kill" - the split second when your mind and your adrenaline war over fighting or fleeing.
Quite obviously, if you try to take the time to weight the philosophical, moral and legal implications of pulling the trigger, you are going to be dead before you can finish your interior discussion.
Your only choices are 1. Can I get away? or 2. Must I stop this threat?

Schools such as Front Sight may be very good at teaching you to present your weapn with both speed and surety; they are probably very good in teaching you to aim for a particular target and to control your weapon so as to put all your shots into a small group.

Such schools can give you the skill to kill but I think no school on earth can give you the will.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
26,911 Posts
Respectfully, I couldn't make a whole lot of sense out of the article.
The way I read it MPG is: When TSHTF the plan and training goes out the window! Hope and luck comes in.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dogchild

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,167 Posts
I agree with what your saying, but in my opinion if your try to make to much out of it starts to sound like psychology.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
351 Posts
I have military experience but no combat experience. We did controlled live fire training but that is nothing compared to combat and I have no illusions about how capable I am because of my training but lack of experience.

There is a very big difference between knowing the path and walking the path.
Like "GunsandNoses", I have 20 years of military experience and in spite of spending a year and a half in Viet Nam from March of 1970 through September of 1972, I didn't really get any combat experience other than how to "hunker in the bunker" when the VC shot rockets at the air base 3 to 5 miles away from where I was.

My contribution to this thread is an old military truism that, no matter how hard you train, no matter how hard you plan, etc., "NO Battle Plan EVER survives first contact with the enemy" be that enemy a civilian bad guy or another country's soldier.

You can only try to maintain a high enough situational awareness level allowing you to assess any threats that come your way and react soon enough to put as much distance between you and that threat as possible. This, IF you're lucky, may give you time enough for your training to kick in and get away or into cover before the BG can kill you.

IMHO, until one has actually been in a real combat situation, and survived fighting for one's life, there can only speculation as to how one will handle that type of situation.

Like G.a.N. I can only apply what training I have and hope that it's enough should I ever need to use it. I fervently pray that day never comes, but I am prepared to do what is necessary to protect myself and loved ones should it ever become necessary.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
298 Posts
Military combat, in my experience, was different than what we trained for and there is no better training then actually living through a firefight. In the first few firefights I would agree that hope and luck were valid. But as time progresses and firefights under your belt multiply, the experience you gain helps to keep you alive.

Same goes with the training I received at FLETC. No matter how long you train, the circumstances in actual life will be different. And again, the first time you get into a 'gunfight' there is a lot of credence to hope and luck, but again, as you live and you learn, your reactions differ and you now rely more on street training. Circumstances that you learn on the street may cause you to pull you gun from the holster before the SHTF; whereas, your first few encounters may have had you unprepared and the gun was holstered. These are things you can and should learn from your training agent, but even a good training agent cannot take into all scenarios.

Examples, after a period of time, upon entering you not only look for the guy with the gun, but your mind automatically maps out cover locations; not only for your use, but for the use of the people you are after.

Sad to say, no one learns everything and each encounter will be a bit different than other encounters.
 
  • Like
Reactions: btleslie

·
Member Emeritus 1946-2018
Joined
·
35,996 Posts
Yep MPG rodfair summed it up pretty much. The other thing I got from it is that you may think you know everything there is to know about firearms and training but it is always wise to listen to others viewpoints.
I learn something new on this forum nearly every day; and I have had my mind changed about many things by listening to, or reading, the viewpoints of others.

Thanks Rodfair and 91 Whiskey!
 
  • Like
Reactions: rodfair

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
26,911 Posts
One of the things that I learned while doing my ...note, limited, shortened, truncated bodyguard course was just that . When the battle starts the first thing to go out the window is the plan. Most of these courses are designed to make you feel comfortable with the weapon under various scenarios. But they do not shoot back.
My only "combat" situation the plan went out the window....it was a woman shooter that we were not trained for. Believe it or not!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,363 Posts
I lived on and around the streets of Chicago for my young life in gang infested high crime areas. I developed a very high situational awareness and a very good innate sense for real danger v.s. paranoia and I was a very fast runner. I could always sense when I was about to get jumped or hustled and usually pro-actively removed myslef from the situation. I have had guns pointed at me and have been shot at, beat to a pulp more times than I wish to remember and handed out a few beat downs myslef, but I never had a gun. I also did a good amount of street fighting and amateur boxing which taught me allot about depth perception, timing, speed and body position for leverage and psychologically holding your cool in tense hand to hand combat type situations. I found all these things to be very applicable to training with firearms. Another thing that really helps me is staying in good shape, not drinking or smoking staying off prescription drugs and illegal drugs. I still do the boxing workout, hitting the bag, a little road work training with and mostly coaching others i.e. focus pads and light sparring. I don't mix it up anymore because I don't have health insurance I am getting older. I also stretch allot and do Pilate's. I work outdoors all year in construction and stay mentally sharp taking college courses (grad school). I guess what I'm saying is all these things play a collective role in being on-point regarding situations. Situational awareness, physical fitness, mental sharpness, keen innate instincts in high stress situations. Ability to be fairly able to defend myslef in a defensive hand to hand combat situation. I still rarely carry a firearm in the general public or in my truck, if at all, becuase the liability is so high v.s. my actual tactical training with handguns (I am not against CCW this is just my personal decision not too). I know how to stay out of harms way using common sense, situational awareness and not being cocky or aggressive with people. Pretty much the way I dress for work (Jump suit, work boots, cap or hat, usually covered in some kind of dirt) and how I hold myself most guys usually don't come looking for trouble from me and I am the last one to try to dish any out. I am always polite and respectful. I avoid road rage, a good way to get shot here in Georgia. My boss (I was the passenger) both of us unarmed had a shotgun drawn on him for yelling at someone in a vehicle from his truck this year in the Suburbs. It wasn't some criminal more like some suburban white collar tough guy wanna be panty waste prick. I have been robbed before and I did not see it coming. In other words know one came running up to me waving his arms going "stop I'm going to rob you". The guy caught an angle on me and cold cocked me when I came too my pockets were cut open. If I had a gun it would have gotten stolen and out on the streets. Remember these bad guys allot of them are career criminals that have been around street crime in and out of jail their whole lives, they are good at it, many may have been in gun fights before. I addition we live in a Police State right now. The legal system is not about "serving and protecting the public" it is about profit, collecting revenue like writing traffic and serving local, state and federal governments. If you choose to be a hero or even just protecting yourself and discharge a firearm in public. You better do it 150% according to local, county, state and federal law(patriot act and NDAA now) and also in regards to civil law and private property becuase all these things are going to be weighed in your case, because you better believe you are going to court if not to jail. You better believe you are going to spend tens if not hundreds of thousands before it is done. I am out on the streets every day working and driving, these are my impressions(very subjective). If I can afford to train and take more tactical fire arm classes where I am shooting and moving, not just static shooting then I might consider CCW more often. I do carry if I am in industrial ghetto type area when I get chemicals or material, the type of areas like when I was working a garbage route in downtown Atlanta where a gun shot might be a normal sound LOL, but not in the rich suburbs. In the boonies I will keep the 617 in the truck, never take it out of state with me though. Without proper tactical training with firearms my personal decision would be not to get into a gun fight.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,931 Posts
AdesteAnimo


I know that long post must be rich with wisdom and excellent bits of information, however,one LONG LONG paragraph makes for very hard reading? Do not stop posting or think I am negative about the posts, just cannot read thru them as written?
 

·
Member Emeritus 1946-2018
Joined
·
35,996 Posts
AdesteAnimo


I know that long post must be rich with wisdom and excellent bits of information, however,one LONG LONG paragraph makes for very hard reading? Do not stop posting or think I am negative about the posts, just cannot read thru them as written?
Paragraphs would greatly aid the reader.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,168 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Adeste, all very good points. Hope you don't mind me pasting and setting the paragraphs for you, so others can read it easier. I mainly agree to your situational awareness comments. I'll add look like you know where you are going and what you are doing and you generally won't get bothered. I used to work in Atlanta and had to go to Grady Hospital at all hours of the night. No one ever bothered me other than to ask for a quarter and I was in a shirt and tie most of the time.

Here's your post with paragraphs. As best I can figure out.

I lived on and around the streets of Chicago for my young life in gang infested high crime areas. I developed a very high situational awareness and a very good innate sense for real danger v.s. paranoia and I was a very fast runner. I could always sense when I was about to get jumped or hustled and usually pro-actively removed myslef from the situation. I have had guns pointed at me and have been shot at, beat to a pulp more times than I wish to remember and handed out a few beat downs myslef, but I never had a gun. I also did a good amount of street fighting and amateur boxing which taught me allot about depth perception, timing, speed and body position for leverage and psychologically holding your cool in tense hand to hand combat type situations. I found all these things to be very applicable to training with firearms. Another thing that really helps me is staying in good shape, not drinking or smoking staying off prescription drugs and illegal drugs. I still do the boxing workout, hitting the bag, a little road work training with and mostly coaching others i.e. focus pads and light sparring. I don't mix it up anymore because I don't have health insurance I am getting older. I also stretch allot and do Pilate's. I work outdoors all year in construction and stay mentally sharp taking college courses (grad school).

I guess what I'm saying is all these things play a collective role in being on-point regarding situations. Situational awareness, physical fitness, mental sharpness, keen innate instincts in high stress situations. Ability to be fairly able to defend myslef in a defensive hand to hand combat situation. I still rarely carry a firearm in the general public or in my truck, if at all, becuase the liability is so high v.s. my actual tactical training with handguns (I am not against CCW this is just my personal decision not too). I know how to stay out of harms way using common sense, situational awareness and not being cocky or aggressive with people. Pretty much the way I dress for work (Jump suit, work boots, cap or hat, usually covered in some kind of dirt) and how I hold myself most guys usually don't come looking for trouble from me and I am the last one to try to dish any out. I am always polite and respectful. I avoid road rage, a good way to get shot here in Georgia.

My boss (I was the passenger) both of us unarmed had a shotgun drawn on him for yelling at someone in a vehicle from his truck this year in the Suburbs. It wasn't some criminal more like some suburban white collar tough guy wanna be panty waste prick.

I have been robbed before and I did not see it coming. In other words know one came running up to me waving his arms going "stop I'm going to rob you". The guy caught an angle on me and cold cocked me when I came too my pockets were cut open. If I had a gun it would have gotten stolen and out on the streets.

Remember these bad guys allot of them are career criminals that have been around street crime in and out of jail their whole lives, they are good at it, many may have been in gun fights before.

I addition we live in a Police State right now. The legal system is not about "serving and protecting the public" it is about profit, collecting revenue like writing traffic and serving local, state and federal governments. If you choose to be a hero or even just protecting yourself and discharge a firearm in public. You better do it 150% according to local, county, state and federal law(patriot act and NDAA now) and also in regards to civil law and private property becuase all these things are going to be weighed in your case, because you better believe you are going to court if not to jail. You better believe you are going to spend tens if not hundreds of thousands before it is done.

I am out on the streets every day working and driving, these are my impressions(very subjective). If I can afford to train and take more tactical fire arm classes where I am shooting and moving, not just static shooting then I might consider CCW more often. I do carry if I am in industrial ghetto type area when I get chemicals or material, the type of areas like when I was working a garbage route in downtown Atlanta where a gun shot might be a normal sound LOL, but not in the rich suburbs. In the boonies I will keep the 617 in the truck, never take it out of state with me though. Without proper tactical training with firearms my personal decision would be not to get into a gun fight.
 
1 - 20 of 34 Posts
Top