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Discussion Starter #1
We've had two shootings in the last seven days. The first one because a 16 year old kid wanted "to scare them," resulting in the death of a 15 year old that was apparently a good kid with good grades. A week later there was another near a school over an unknown argument.

I still say that we need an automatic 25 years added to whatever felony sentence the perp gets when a firearm is used. In other words, if they get 5 years for attempted murder, they get 5 + 25. These little twerps were never taught respect for life or firearms.

It's better to lock them up because they cannot be rehabilitated. I'd be happy to pay the extra taxes for prisons -- a lot of extra taxes. I get so tired of this "it wasn't pre-meditated" and "it was only attempted murder" lawyer double talk. They had a gun, they bought bullets, they put bullets in the gun, they picked a target, they pointed it, they pulled the trigger. How is that not premeditated, even when the gun fires "accidentally?" The fact that some surgeon was able to save the person's life speaks nothing towards the intention of the perp. It only speaks towards the skill of the EMT's, or the surgeon, or the fact the emergency room wasn't overwhelmed at that particular time.

How is it that the state can convict an accomplice for murder just because he was part of the crime when the other person pulled the trigger, but the person who pulled the trigger cannot be convicted for murder because the surgeon was able to save the victim's life? Why should the perp get a break because he has bad aim or because the surgeon has superior skills? That's just stupid and it's time we all spoke up about it and made a change. :mad:
 

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i understand your upset but i dont like minimum sentencing i think the judge should have a lot of leadway in what they sentence.

25 years sound excessive imo this would also include crimes that involved a gun but even without being discharged.. rob a corner store.. prehaps you flash the gun, maybe its' not even loaded you automaticly get 25+ years?

man that is harsh because chances are they will die in prison.


the punishment should fit the crime but i think this is to much.
 

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joe sixpack said:
25 years sound excessive imo this would also include crimes that involved a gun but even without being discharged.. rob a corner store.. prehaps you flash the gun, maybe its' not even loaded you automaticly get 25+ years?

man that is harsh because chances are they will die in prison.


the punishment should fit the crime but i think this is to much.
I can appreciate your perspective about the punishment fitting the crime. But I want to change the focus from guns being the problem to where the problem really is -- the criminal who uses a gun. My perspective is that it is only a matter of time until a bad guy who uses a gun will injure or kill an innocent victim. He may only flash it today, but what will happen tomorrow? He may not kill someone today because the surgeon saved the victim's life, but why let the bad guy serve less time so he can get out sooner and create another victim?

If we catch a bad guy using a gun, even though he did not shoot someone today, let's lock him up now before he does. Like playing Russian Roulette, it is only a matter of time before the bad guy will pull the trigger with serious or fatal consequences. Why wait? How many bites at the apple do we give the guy? Let's save someone from becoming a victim while we still have the chance to, before it happens.

So yes, my solution is harsh. That is my intention -- to make using a firearm in the commission of a felony so harsh the bad guys don't do it, and if they do they go away for a long time. My solution calls for a new way of thinking about crime prevention. A bad guy who uses a gun has demonstrated he is a deadly threat to society. Let's not give him multiple chances to leave a trail of victims before he finally make good on his threat.
 

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i think it would be better to get them help.. ask our self why is this person doing what they're doing.. i just see tacking on 25years as being a death sentence and i think a lot of good people will be discarded.

not to mention the prisons i know you say you will pay higher taxes but i couldn't even imagine how much higher the taxes would have to be.. probably several folds.. they'ed have to have high rise prisons..

and if you get tough on someone who uses a gun you'ed have to get tough on every one..

could you imagine someone who stabs someone could probably get less time.


if you threw me in prison right now for 25 years 1 of 3 things would happen..


1. i turn into a blood thirst animal to survive, probably killing other inmates and getting yet more time tacked on.
2. i hang my self.
3. i become a victim repeatedly rapped & beaten till i either commit suicide or get killed.

i'd rather just take the death penalty anyway since i'd be a old man by the time i got out.
i know it's one thing to sit and say we gotta get tough on these criminals.. but i think we need to deal with the cause of the problems and not focus on the punishment which is really the very end result.

education, community programs, and welfare.

education to teach people why drugs, gangs, and violence is a bad thing.
community programs to bring people together and better their neigborhoods.. how many people know their neighbors beyond their names.. how many even know their names?
welfare to help people who are mentally ill. as well as making sure kids are'nt being abused and have food to eat.

i can understand why gangs are popular.. i can understand why people rob corner stores..
gangs offer a sense of family they either dont have or need as protection from other gangs.
people rob stores and other people either they are mentally ill, a lot of times they need drug money, or have no money and are desperate.

we need to work to ensure that gangs, drugs, and violence is not the most attractive choice.. and we can't do that with threats of greater and greater punishment.. the greatest threat is the death penalty and people still commit murder.

gotta ask your self why would someone commit a crime like that which carries the possibility of death?

perhaps the only thing worse you could threaten is slavery, torture, to really drag out the agony, then death.

i dont think any punishment will stop crime, it might reduce it some but i think the added cost of housing all those prisoners will far out weigh any drop in crime you might see.
 

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joe sixpack said:
if you threw me in prison right now for 25 years 1 of 3 things would happen..


1. i turn into a blood thirst animal to survive, probably killing other inmates and getting yet more time tacked on.
2. i hang my self.
3. i become a victim repeatedly rapped & beaten till i either commit suicide or get killed.
I fail to see a downside to any of the above.

Criminals who use guns to commit crimes make it harder for law abiding gun owners, like you and me, to enjoy our right to bear arms. I have no pity on them. Society today has become too mamby pamby. Worrying about if the guy that murdered a whole family was loved by his father. Or did his uncle touch him inappropriately? Who gives a damn? He murdered an entire family. Introduce him to Old Sparky or lock him away until he rots. If he used a gun, I say double the minimum sentence or 20 years, whichever is greater.

The same goes for the crackhead that robbed a convenient store with a toy gun. I am tired of the scum of society giving anti-gun politicians more excuses to infringe on my rights. I don't care if it were a toy or a real gun.
 

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*shakes head*

point is you make the assumption that everyone in this situation is total write offs of humanity.
those 3 out comes typically apply to everyone in prison.. not just the people you wanna lock up the most.

what about the 17 year old him and his friends stole a car to joy ride.. are they write offs?
send them to prison for 2 years and 1,2,3 can happen to them..

obviously you have no concept of mercy, im glad i do not know you irl.


well then i guess im gonna have to break it down in practicality for you..

this will never happen, we have over crowding already do you honestly thing the system could take those kinds sentence not only in length but in number of inmates?

your fooling your self.. you wont, no i take that back.. can't possibly pay for that kind of prison system.

and if you're going to crack down on this then you have to do it across the board, which again you can't do even if you wanted..

i suppose you could execute them though to save costs and space.. could you imagine the out rage at the number of executions? never happen.. never ever happen.. politically, financial, and practically this is all impossible.

and if you think increases sentences will be a strong enough deterrent.. you're fooling your self.
its this sort of thinking that says "well if we increase gun laws it will stop gun violence", wrong.

if you think this will stop shooting sprees, wrong again.. how many of them are taken alive? how many of them are even alive when the cops show up.

you can throw all the punishment you want, you're just treating the symptoms not the cause.. but until you realize that this country will never change.
 

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you can throw all the punishment you want, you're just treating the symptoms not the cause.. but until you realize that this country will never change.
I think we had a similar discussion in another thread. JMO..The problem starts at home. First children are not raised with the same values as we once were. There is less respect for others learned at home. Less respect for life. Some blame tv, movies and music but I listened to hard rock and watched some pretty violent movies growing up. I have never pointed a gun at another with intentions of killing. I get mad but I don't consider murdering someone because they pissed me off or cut me off in traffic. If I screwed up as a kid my dad whipped my ass. He did not send me to time out and the whippings did not make me more violent as an adult. It did teach me right from wrong. Concequences for my actions is a primal lesson that children must learn. Also those consequences must be effective to deter the behavior. When parents allow government schools and tv to rasie their children as happens more and more today, we get what we have now. Violent crimes on the increase and by younger individuals. I saw an article
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080221/NEWS02/802210390/1001/NEWS
where the aclu is sueing because the parents are being fined for their childrens bad behavior. If you ask me I think we need more of this. Parents should be held responsible for kids acting like idiots. Maybe then people will take having children a little more seriously.
Again it starts with the home enviroment. My dad beat my behind on a regular basis. Funny I never thought of taking the 22 rifle he got when I was 12 and sneaking into his bedroom and killing him.
Another thing when you can talk about sex and alternate lifestyles in school but you can't say the word Jesus Christ something is terribly wrong.
 

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We have become a society of non responsibility. No one is willing to take responsibility for their actions. Oh he was abused as a child should excuse murder? Like heck it should, the victim is just as dead! & his or Her family is grieving just as much. Prisons were never meant as a summer rest resort. They are prisons if they don't rehabilitate so be it. They are keeping a criminal off the streets & from injuring other innocent people. A person who commits a violent crime has demonstrated his or her inability to function in society & should be removed, it they are injured in the process oh well! I don't think they should be beaten or abused before they hit prison, but they should go to prison for a very long time. Frank
 

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I've taught my son that if some kid brings out a firearm without a parent present to check the weapon is unloaded and give permission to get the hell out of dodge and find an adult no matter where he is.
Things like this are a real shame. Especially when a child is involved.
Educate those kids. Educate those kids. Educate those kids.
Can anyone say Gun Education Courses made mandatory in our schools? This type of #@%$% might not happen, or at least be cut down in numbers drastically.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
joe sixpack said:
your fooling your self.. you wont, no i take that back.. can't possibly pay for that kind of prison system.
To be sure, it would be very expensive in the beginning. But I am looking at the entire cost society pays for stolen property, medical care and lost lives. It might be a whole lot cheaper than you think if you look at the long term, larger picture. You need to factor in the immediate savings to society coupled with the HUGE deterrence factor.

If parents are not going to teach their kids respect for firearms, then society must. The 16 year old shooter is a perfect example of the point I am trying to make. His father is a convicted felon with his own history of weapons violations. Obviously, the kid learned from his father and now another innocent is dead. The shooter's driver was picked up in August on a weapon charge. For the full story, read these:

http://www.lvrj.com/news/15834037.html
http://www.lvrj.com/news/15833982.html

The shooter was dealt a bad lot in life. It is too late to fix him. He has already killed at the young age of 16. But with harsh laws against the people who use guns in the commission of a felony, it is not too late to save the next innocent victim.
 

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VegasGuy said:
To be sure, it would be very expensive in the beginning. But I am looking at the entire cost society pays for stolen property, medical care and lost lives. It might be a whole lot cheaper than you think if you look at the long term, larger picture. You need to factor in the immediate savings to society coupled with the HUGE deterrence factor.
if someone can still commit murder with death penalty often a possibility what makes you think 25 years will be a significant deterrent?

thats exactly what you are banking on since punishment comes after the fact.. that means the cost society pays for stolen property, medical care, and lost lives.. has not changed.

in the case of stolen property the state does not replace stolen goods, so you would rather have every tax payer suffer the loss rather then the individual.. instead of being mugged for their laptop you can pay for it out of you pocket with higher taxes.

Perhaps i under estimate the deterrent value.. i dont think so.. or perhaps you over estimate it.. but either way you will be footing the bill regardless and i believe the bill will be insurmountable.

or do you imagine the crime rate reduction would be staggering? like -30%?

remember the higher crimes like murder will probably see no change, lower crimes perhaps you will see a decrease but the lower crime that are committed will now be facing double or more sentence time then they would have before.
 

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If that is your logic, then why bother putting anyone in prison? I mean, since people are going to commit the crimes anyway why waste time locking them up? Let's just counsel everyone that commits a crime. WHy didn't we think of that before?

Because it won't work! There are a select few that will see the light. The rest will simply game the system and be out on the street committing more crimes and hurting innocent people. Screw them.

Oh, by the way, I do have a concept of mercy. I just don't have mercy for those that prey on other people. Those that choose to steal and harm decent law abiding people are trash. They deserve what they get. Instead of worrying about the criminal, how about you have a bit of pity for the victim?
 

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i never suggested getting rid of punishment like prison.. my point is there becomes a point where harsher punishment will not have any effect except a larger prison system with more prisoners and larger bill.

i also object that this be blanket applied to all offenders, in essence the punishment should not be more horrendous then the crime.

heres a quotes i like:

Oscar Wilde said:
One is absolutely sickened, not by the crimes that the wicked have committed, but by the punishments that the good have inflicted; and a community is infinitely more brutalized by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime.
 

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Doctor_Venkman said:
The punishment should by all means be more horrendous than the crime. That's why it's called punishment.
And you say you know what mercy is.
 

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2 shootings in 7 days? Come to st. louis. It is more like 2 shootings a day at times. :(
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Not trying to out-do St. Loius, but there was another school shooting yesterday. That makes three in 11 days:

http://www.lvrj.com/news/15976232.html

"Gonzalez said he believed the shooting was sparked by another fight "a couple of days ago" at a Chuck E. Cheese restaurant. Monday's fight and shooting probably were in retaliation for the earlier incident, he said."

In my life it never would have dawned on me to hear the words shooting, fight and Chuck E. Cheese in the same sentence. I'll say it again, if parents will not teach their kids respect for firearms, then society must do it with severe and harsh penalties at the first occurrence of gun usage. Let's make the gun user the problem, which it is, and not the gun itself.
 

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It seems that Chuck E. Cheese has turned into a major source of troubles. A few years back many of these establishments started serving liquor. Things have been going down hill ever since it seems.

Law enforcement in the Brookfield area around here would like to see the place close down for good. They have to respond to that place way to often for fights amongst parents( alcohol sotted), those who are not, and bratty kids who are violent on a regular basis. Citizens and LEOs get hurt way to often in these altercations daily.
 
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