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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all, maybe this belongs in politics but it directly pertains to guns too.

Some larger stores have filed the 4473 form electronically for a while now. For example a large chain store had me use a tablet to fill out the 4473 for my 10/22 over a year ago. What about the little guys? Talked to a local FFL today and he said the ATF is switching over to everyone using e-filing. He has to fill out everything on the computer, then swipe my id, scan my permit, then print the form for me to sign because he hasn't invested in a touch screen device yet.

Should it be legal to mandate e-filing? What about those rural stores who have no isp options or who's isp can't provide reliable service do to mother natures fits? What about Amish rights?

Is this going to lead to an electronically searchable database? There was talk of a loophole called the purchase history list that would be kept by each county sheriff's office. The FFL would be held responsible to report all purchases and transfers to the county sheriff of the consumers listed residence.
 

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Both firearm purchases I have made in the last year (Mossberg Mav88 @ Dicks Sporting Goods and the G2 @ Cabelas) have been using the tablet and electronically transmitted. Interesting question about the smaller stores and e-filing. Amish rights also. As unlikely as an Amish gun purchase might be, would requiring an Amish person to use e-filing be a violation of the 14 Amendment Equal Protection Clause?
 

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So a person does an E-filing of their 4473 and it gets sent off. Where's the copy the FFL must have on site? How does a system crash effect a LGS or box store in the event of retaining their FFL when being inspected for 1 of a thousand reasons?
 

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Not much different than filling out the paper 4473 then having the clerke input your information into the computer for the electronic background check using the state police system.
 

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I have no concerns with it. I guess I don't care at this point. There are plenty of other ways to track gun owners that legally buy guns. If they want to keep records they will and electronic 4473 forms way make it a little easier but like I said if they are going to track it they will. Guessing the electronic requirement has options in it to cover special situations as mentioned. We have enough people that work in gun shops here maybe they can help answer these questions.
 

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It maybe interesting, or not, that none of the records that were made prior to computers, were never entered (nor will be) into the computer system. Had an occasion to contact ATF regarding a full auto that I needed to know the official registration history of. The agent complained and stated it would take a while because he had to sort through the paper records to look it up. Told him why it had to be done. It took him two weeks to get back to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Not much different than filling out the paper 4473 then having the clerke input your information into the computer for the electronic background check using the state police system.
Before the clerk did not input my information. I have my permit so they photocopy it and call in the permit number to County to ensure it is still valid. No electronic record of the serial number or model of gun I bought. Now there is an electronic, itemized list of all future purchases sent to the ATF within 24 hours of me taking posession.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Both firearm purchases I have made in the last year (Mossberg Mav88 @ Dicks Sporting Goods and the G2 @ Cabelas) have been using the tablet and electronically transmitted. Interesting question about the smaller stores and e-filing. Amish rights also. As unlikely as an Amish gun purchase might be, would requiring an Amish person to use e-filing be a violation of the 14 Amendment Equal Protection Clause?
Yes, the local Amish hunt for meat, muzzle loader for deer. They don't use the firearm for self defensive but killing an animal is acceptable. There may be specific types of firearms used, like their tractors use steel wheels with no rubber.
 

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What state are you in? I believe regardless of state all that information was recorded on a paper form. Are you saying because you have a carry permit you never filled out a form 4473?
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
What state are you in? I believe regardless of state all that information was recorded on a paper form. Are you saying because you have a carry permit you never filled out a form 4473?
No, I'm saying the data never went anywhere unless the ATF did an audit. The 4473 was a paper copy that was kept locked at the FFL. Now they are basically compiling a purchase history database now. Why should the local police have an inventory of what I own? It's not the gun grab scare, its the clerical errors that happen in an office that shouldn't have my information to begin with. If the list is accidentally released ( which they've done repeatedly with social security numbers) they would essentially be publishing a shopping list for criminals.
 

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No, I'm saying the data never went anywhere unless the ATF did an audit. The 4473 was a paper copy that was kept locked at the FFL. Now they are basically compiling a purchase history database now. Why should the local police have an inventory of what I own? It's not the gun grab scare, its the clerical errors that happen in an office that shouldn't have my information to begin with. If the list is accidentally released ( which they've done repeatedly with social security numbers) they would essentially be publishing a shopping list for criminals.
Okay, I was just a little unclear. If you have a permit that waves the check are they still submitting the form or are they just printing it for their records? When I was in Walmart someone filled out the form on the computer, it was printed, and the manager still picked up the phone and called it in. This was in Florida.My FFL has be fill out a paper form, he keys required info into the computer and gets a clearance online, no need for the phone call. He told me he only has to key in the same information they ask for over the phone, the only details about the gun is Long Gun, Handgun, or Other.Ask your local FFL what gets submitted and how it works, I have found mine to be very open and honest about the process.
 

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So a person does an E-filing of their 4473 and it gets sent off. Where's the copy the FFL must have on site? How does a system crash effect a LGS or box store in the event of retaining their FFL when being inspected for 1 of a thousand reasons?

Well...they'd better have redundancy or some hard copy for their records. It's the way things are going which will help when people can't print legible enough to read. I saw that in my local pawnshop were before it was all hand written forms.
 

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Okay, I was just a little unclear. If you have a permit that waves the check are they still submitting the form or are they just printing it for their records? When I was in Walmart someone filled out the form on the computer, it was printed, and the manager still picked up the phone and called it in. This was in Florida.My FFL has be fill out a paper form, he keys required info into the computer and gets a clearance online, no need for the phone call. He told me he only has to key in the same information they ask for over the phone, the only details about the gun is Long Gun, Handgun, or Other.Ask your local FFL what gets submitted and how it works, I have found mine to be very open and honest about the process.
Walmart calls all of them in.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Okay, I was just a little unclear. If you have a permit that waves the check are they still submitting the form or are they just printing it for their records? When I was in Walmart someone filled out the form on the computer, it was printed, and the manager still picked up the phone and called it in. This was in Florida.My FFL has be fill out a paper form, he keys required info into the computer and gets a clearance online, no need for the phone call. He told me he only has to key in the same information they ask for over the phone, the only details about the gun is Long Gun, Handgun, or Other.Ask your local FFL what gets submitted and how it works, I have found mine to be very open and honest about the process.
He said the transfer form must be submitted within 24 hours of the transfer. I just assumed it was the entire 4473 since the whole form is on computer now. The "purchase history" part I'll have to follow up on, not sure if he submits it directly like the multiple handgun form or if the ATF submits it. The handgun form was only allowed to stay on file for 30 days, sounds like the purchase history is on file indefinitely. I should've asked what date it started because my old 22 in October was still on paper. He told me about receiving the ATF letter back in June or July.
 

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Business is now based on electronics - not paper. It's not going to change and the information (data) is piling up faster each day. Think of the posts on this forum about record days (200,000 +) background checks indicating firearm purchases around the country. If you bought band-aids at Walgreens - using plastic of course - somewhere someone or a computer knows about it.

Now the creepy thing is, when a search is done on your computer for say - a 15mm open-end wrench - all the pages you visit on your browser (even your phone) will have tool ads for the next month. That is ridiculous. :p
 

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As unlikely as an Amish gun purchase might be, would requiring an Amish person to use e-filing be a violation of the 14 Amendment Equal Protection Clause?
Not likely. I was in MD/PA recently, and the Amish there had no problem using electronic credit card processing, for example.
 
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