"The Time is Now to Fortify our Houses of Worship"

3159 Views 39 Replies 28 Participants Last post by olfarhors, Jul 29, 2018

coopercdrkey

Discussion Starter · Dec 17, 2017

Can't say too much in the body of my post lest I trample on the site guidelines, but this most recent publication from (Rabbi) Marc Geller went a long way towards reconciling the "turn the other cheek" dilemma I have faced for a long time.

https://tribunecontentagency.com/article/the-time-is-now-to-fortify-our-houses-of-worship/

(Mods- If this violates the rules, delete with my complete understanding.)

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YOT

· #2 · Dec 17, 2017

Rabbi Gelman reaffirmed my reasoning that allows me to perform my J-O-B.

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jonrjen

· #3 · Dec 17, 2017

Somewhat thought provoking, eye opening, and rational.

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McE

· #4 · Dec 17, 2017

So instead of 'trust in God but tie up your camel', it's 'trust in God but carry anyway'

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Grumpy

· #5 · Dec 17, 2017

I would guess most church leaders are reconsidering their stance on protection for their worshipers....a good thing/

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Jake3501

· #6 · Dec 17, 2017

It is perhaps beyond time for this fortification.

Working on a rent house I have, I took an afternoon break to get a tall boy at a little store a few blocks away.

This store is run by a middle easterner, who was in the back as I walked in. As I grabbed my beer, he turned up the volume of his radio so he could hear it out front. I heard a lot of loud chanting over the radio as I paid out and left the store. I couldn't understand any of it at all, but it sounded like a lot of folks getting worked up to do something.

We are getting the usual warnings from the state department during this season, a Christian Church was attacked in Pakistan this morning.

We also have our own homegrown nuts who dislike religion, maybe hate is the word, for whatever reason.

I will at least have a .380 in my hip pocket as I attend Vespers at our Church next Sunday afternoon.

All should keep their head on a swivel, and be aware of their situation at all times until at least the season is over, and preferably afterwards.

As I go out to hold an open house this afternoon, the little .380 will also be in my hip pocket as it normally is.

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McE

· #7 · Dec 17, 2017

Jake3501 said:
We also have our own homegrown nuts who dislike religion, maybe hate is the word, for whatever reason.

Attitudes like that probably contribute.

Reactions: 1

andyknaster

· #8 · Dec 17, 2017

Jake3501 said:
It is perhaps beyond time for this fortification.

Working on a rent house I have, I took an afternoon break to get a tall boy at a little store a few blocks away.

This store is run by a middle easterner, who was in the back as I walked in. As I grabbed my beer, he turned up the volume of his radio so he could hear it out front. I heard a lot of loud chanting over the radio as I paid out and left the store. I couldn't understand any of it at all, but it sounded like a lot of folks getting worked up to do something.

We are getting the usual warnings from the state department during this season, a Christian Church was attacked in Pakistan this morning.

We also have our own homegrown nuts who dislike religion, maybe hate is the word, for whatever reason.

I will at least have a .380 in my hip pocket as I attend Vespers at our Church next Sunday afternoon.

All should keep their head on a swivel, and be aware of their situation at all times until at least the season is over, and preferably afterwards.

As I go out to hold an open house this afternoon, the little .380 will also be in my hip pocket as it normally is.

Isn't that what little 380s are for?

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jtg452

· #9 · Dec 17, 2017

McE said:
So instead of 'trust in God but tie up your camel', it's 'trust in God but carry anyway'

How about 'Trust in the Lord, but keep your powder dry.'?

Several of the mountain men and Western explorers of the early and mid 19th century were quite devout. That didn't keep them from being armed and prepared to defend themselves.

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Lone Eagle

· #10 · Dec 17, 2017

Most churches skim over the Book of Mark because of the one verse where Christ himself tells you to buy a sword. He knew His people would be persecuted and even killed for His name.

As for the country church I attend, it would look like that 9/11 cartoon, "If America was truly the land of the free" with everyone pointing guns at the hijackers. Country folk don't play.

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Mark40

· #11 · Dec 17, 2017

Thank you very much for sharing this coopercdrkey.

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NativeTexan

· #12 · Dec 17, 2017

We started locking the doors to the sanctuary during the service.

I've been approached by elders who wanted to make sure I was carrying. They'd heard that I did, probably from my wife. I assured them I did and I'm there every Sunday. I suspect I'm not the only one that does, hope not, anyway. There's several in the congregation that I suspect carry.

They seemed rather worried about church security. It ain't like some nut attacks a church every Sunday, but yeah, it can happen. I've always carried, though, because I don't wanna risk ending up like Suzanne Gratia Hupp in the Killeen Denny's. We usually eat out after church. I don't feel threatened in church, but I carry, anyway.

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Cariwine

· #13 · Dec 17, 2017

I'm going to be a Catholic Martyr and Saint. We have no gun signs.

You gotta have faith. Of course I don't. I've got a Glock. Lol

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

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andyknaster

· #14 · Dec 17, 2017

Apologies to the folks on the thread. I broke one of the rules in citing Scripture chapter and verse. Unlike so many people today who misunderstand the First Amendment, I know that the people who run a place have the right to limit what can be said there.
Having said that, the Scripture, both Old and New Testaments support a person being armed for protection. If any religious organization prohibits having armed protection, they certainly have the right to do that, but they can't do so on the basis of Scripture. I would ask such organizations if they put locks on their sanctuary doors, buy health insurance for their clergy, or have alarm systems. IMO, preparing for bad situations isn't a demonstration of a lack of faith, it is a recognition of the reality of evil.

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rollin thunder

· #15 · Dec 17, 2017

Some folks take a little longer to accept reality. That's okay, as long as they see it.

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Jake3501

· #16 · Dec 17, 2017

McE said:
Attitudes like that probably contribute.

What attitude?

JimmyA

· #17 · Dec 18, 2017

Thank you for sharing the link. Rabbi Gelman writes clearly and with thoughtful insight. As I read it I was thinking "yes, that's it!"

Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

Reactions: 2

GhostHorse

· #18 · Dec 18, 2017

Excellent article. I completely agree (which, human nature being what it is, proves beyond any doubt that it's excellent).

As for little .380s, this is what has been on my hip at church since the Texas attack.

Handgun holster Gun Gun accessory Starting pistol Airsoft gun

15 rounds of 230 grain FMJ. 5" 1911 accuracy and reliability. God grant that I never need it.

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silverstring

· #19 · Dec 18, 2017

The issue is indeed complex and thought provoking. Why did so many Christians willingly walk into the coliseum pits, or submitted to other gruesome torture/deaths because of their beliefs. The tortures and horrible deaths committed in those first few centuries AD were unimaginable. From my readings it appeared the Nero started the centuries of persecution to cover his burning of Rome, by blaming the followers of that Christ cult. When actually he wanted to burn down properties to take them over to build more monuments to himself. One of the earliest coverups.
I and a few others now CC at our church, doors are locked etc..I either carry my Glock 19 or Sig P320 and take my mission to protect very seriously. I was painfully aware in this morning's service that I was distracted by playing guitar and singing, and not watching the doors. Gonna have to figure out a way to do it all successfully. Maybe more time practicing the guitar part so I don;t have to keep an eye on the fretboard.
Anyway thanks for sharing the well thought out article.

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230JHP

· #20 · Dec 18, 2017

We started structured security and response teams at our church several years ago.

There's a lot to look at -- not just protecting the main building, but also extending that protection to child care areas, the congregants, the pastor -- it helps to have someone with a background in organizing that sort of thing spend some time with your routine to spot vulnerabilities that are less obvious.

Churches are not just soft targets for terrorist attacks -- the collection of the offering in most churches follows a routine that never changes and would be fairly easy to take by anyone who attended one or two services and scouted the pattern.

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