Have any of you ever tried this? The supposed logic of this states that pulling out another loaded pistol is faster than slaping another mag in your gun. I don't know but I think that the time it takes to do either would be pretty much the same.
I'm for the "New York Reload". I like the Five shot 357 Revolvers. I carry a 605 Taurus and a SP101 Ruger. If I need to go a little lighter then I carry a Mdl. 37 S&W or a Charter Undercover for a reload. All the above can use the same Speedloaders. If I carry a 357 and a 38spl. then the Speedloaders have 38+P in them. If I carry my 7 shot 357 then I back it up with a 38spl. or N.A.A. 22mag. I still carry Speedloaders or Speed Strips when carrying 2 guns. :guns:
Makes sense to carry a New York reload.
It's been patented some what at the Steel Challange and other competitions for some events.
To be truthful there are variations of this. Get to that in a moment.
Worked well for the New York Stakeout Squad with Jim Cirillo and other highly trained and professional police officers from that outfit. Granted, things that work well for LEOs and Special units don't always work well for civilians, but this is one of those cases where it works no matter if LEO or civilian.
There are even holsters made for this kind of carry that work. Won't work for everybody under every condition, but will for some.
BigBadBull hit it on the head, Practice and proficiency are paramount for this if one uses this method, like any other method.
One carries two of the same or similar guns. Either the holster set carries two next to each other(one on each side), or one accesses the guns form seperate, but easy to get to holsters on the body.
Instead of reloading with speedloaders or magazines one literally drops the first gun to the ground and is accessing the second gun at about the same time.
This has been timed by the professionals(includes some well known shooting instructors,too) and practically all cases,depending on the user's abilities, the second gun was faster than a speed reload or a speed reloader reload.
This was done with stress added(safey rules were followed to the letter of the law) to make sure this could be done under real world conditions realistically. Not as just some stunt or new tacti-cool fad.
Most of the guns used were either small but potent guns like the Ruger SP101 and other snubbies, or smaller but potent pistols of about the same class and size. Medium sized pistols or revolvers this would still work with. For larger pistols this can still work, but there may be some problems of getting the egun out fast. A little experimentation could make using even large pistols work.
Down side was the first gun takes a beating and secondary ammo still was recommended to be carried to load the second. However if inexpensive guns are used one will not be worrying about the first gun if speed and accuracy are of the essence.
That is for those who care to carry this way.
There are limitations and variables to all this that make this not for everybody. For those who will practice and become professional level qualified, this may be a good choice. This whether LEO or civilian.
Second gun carry is recommended for LEOs and civilains. If the first gun goes belly up(happens enough to warrant this as cor consideration) then one is defenseless under msot circumstances. Yes, one might be carrying a knife, but a handgun lets one take care of a bad situation better.Especially during a gunfight. This may seem obvious, but the 'hey, I got a knife' thing may very well not work.Especially against multiple attackers or other Murphy variables. If it can go wrong, it will.
For others, myself included, staying with magazines, speedloaders, and SpeedStrips seems to work just fine.
There are plenty for who this would work for. Again, the level of training,practice, and staying at that high proficiency level are key before going whole hog on this.
A number of bowling pin shooters have used this method and describe it in articles, in books, or periodicals. Jim Cirillo has books out on this as well as Mas Ayoob.
I figure some of these threads on tactics or methods are being taken from Mas Ayoob articles or books. Too coincidental? Maybe. ;D Many other trainers also figure into this.
I just read about it a few years back in some gun rag, I don't know if the article was Ayoob or not but I'm pretty sure he did not coin the phrase. I question the validity of this practice since I found that even carrying one handgun can be difficult at times. However, with the advent of airweight and titanium revolvers and polymer pocket guns the argument for the practice seems valid. I am thinking that a backup might be the way to go.
21 years with the NYPD and all I carried at the beginning was a S&W Model 10 .38 and a Model 36 CS as a BUG. When we went to the Glock 19 I had the option to keep my Model 10 (which I did for 2 years) or switch to the Glock. After going semi-auto I kinda realized 15+1 along with my partners' 15+1 was gonna be enough for most situations without a reload. Plus we had at least 20 other officers respond literally under 1 minute if someone called a 10-13 (PO in trouble). My BUG during the Glock years was my trusty Ruger SP101 .357 (we weren't authorized to carry anything in .357 but I did anyway). I've been involved in shootings but the only perp I killed was with my SP101 when I dropped my Glock chasing him. (Boy did I have to answer some tough questions from Internal Affairs when ballistics revealed I used a .357) Luckily, it didn't get to the media and stayed within the Department. They would have had a field day with me-- "Killer Cop uses 'illegal' gun to blast suspect"
I guess my point (oh yeah here it is) is that I felt more comfortable just reloading my duty firearm rather than the famed "New York Reload". LOL. As long as you train either way you're going to get the same result. I guess I'm old school in my thinking but all I need is a little snubby to back me up.
Just for the record I am not advocating this method at all. There are those for who it works. For them, fine. It takes all the practice and dedication for those who use it.
Since this forum is global there is good reason to cover all the aspects and it seems we all did.
There are those who are impressionable who may see this at the forums, on the silver screen, or other media and think this is "with it" and not take all into consdieration. There are other reasons for all the aspects to be covered as well.
What I said was more for everybody's consumption more than a yes or no for this method.
Since I'm babling quite a bit tonight I'll toss in my 5 cents (since the Dollar is dropping I might as well up what I think I'm worth).
I would normally go for the reload before I went for a second gun. However, normally when I do carry a second its in a pocket holster. That gun in my pocket could very well be the gun I start with as it'll be in my hand before trouble starts. That gun I would then likely drop/toss and draw my actual primary, which is on my belt.
I think this technique was more relevant before auto's became as common as they are today. Not that I think its outdated but like NYPD said, if you got 15 or 12 or whatever your double stack auto holds you have good odds of finishing the fight before you have to reload. I recall that Jim Cirello (I'm sure I misspelled his name and I'm sorry but spell check isn't going to help me with it) carried three 6 shot revolvers during his time on the Stake Out Squad back in the 60's and/or 70's. That same 18rds before having to reload a revolver can be done by many full size service pistols without replacing the mag or changing guns.
Since there are still a lot of revolver carriers out there and their numbers have not decreased as much as 'conventional wisdom' would have us believe, this would be more aimed at them(pardon the pun) than for pistol carriers.Granted there are a lot more pistol carriers than revolver ones.
Could be done for those who carry the compact or subcompacts though.
Well it's certainly good to be prepared, but I'm on the fence with this one. Since my primary carry is a .44 mag I don't think I'll be lugging two of those yet. However a Bug might be in the works in case my right hand gets disabled or the revolver for some strange reason ftfs.
You could try to find a used 5 shot 44 special as a bug. That way spare ammo thats carried loose (vs a speedloader) could fit either gun as long as its 44 special ammo and not magnum ammo. There are a few excellent loads in 44 special so that shouldn't be a concern. If you chose to carry your primary reloads as magnum rounds, they can be in speedloaders to reduce your loading time and to prevent getting the different rounds confused.
If it were carried crossdraw in a vertical OWB holster it could be accessed by either hand. But, for me atleast, that type of carry isn't as concealable. But it you're managing to conceal a large frame it could work for you.
The extra weight is the issue. I carry my .44 in a shoulder hoster and it's a stainless so it's heavy. I've done the with Naa mini as a all else fails gun in my back pocket with no real complaints I was going to gravitate toward a titanium though.
When I was in Atlanta, there was a story someone told me. They rolled up on someone burglarizing their home. They did the 'right' thing to do and called the Sheriff to send someone out there to catch them red handed. The dispatcher told them, they will be out there in a short while to fill out a report. The fella said no, you don't understand, they are STILL here and I'm waiting outside. The dispatcher once again said, we will send someone out there in a few minutes to take a report, they probably won't make it in time. So ... he hung up. Caled back a minute or so later and said, better send the sheriff and the JP out here. I'm fixing to shoot the SOB since ya'll aren't going to do anything about it.
Flyer I personally had a similar experience but with a four legged predator instead of two. A few years back we had a neighbor with a pitbull which is fine I don't have anything against the breed, mostly it's the owner not the dog. Anyway this thing chewed a hole in their fence and claimed the whole street, sidwalk and lampost as his and began to vicicously attack anything that was walking down the street. Well we put up with that until school got out and the thing was biting kids, so I called animal control and told them there was a dog out here attacking little kids could you come and get it. "Sure." They said "we'll send someone right away." Half an hour goes by, this time it bit a woman walking down the street, she had a walking stick so whe wacked it pretty good and it withdrew into it's yard a little. Called animal control again "we are aware of the situation and we are sending someone to you right away." I told them to please hurry because it just attacked a woman. "Does she need medical attention?" I told them no but there are lot of kids out here and they could get hurt. "We are sending someone as soon as possible." This time and hour went by I was literally standing on the street warning people about the dog. Next it almost got a kid on a bike it literally bit the tire the kid was screaming but the kid and the bike were fine. By this time I had my .45 with me I was prepared to end it but I decided to give animal control one more call. "We are aware of the situation sir we are trying to get someone out to you." I told them to forget it I have a gun I'll take of the matter myself. 15 minutes later animal control showed up to get the dog.