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Bummer, I was hoping he'd do the original drywall tests too.

Some of us have to be concerned about over-penetration.
 

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I really do love my Judge. It's the first Taurus I've ever had and couldn't be happier with it so far. I'm just now starting to trust Taurus after hearing nothing but bad things about them for so long. Guess the people who REALLY own one know are a better source than those who would choose to bash it first.
 

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BigBadBull said:
Bummer, I was hoping he'd do the original drywall tests too.

Some of us have to be concerned about over-penetration.
I don't normally recommend these but if one has serious over-pentration concerns, take a look at Glasers and Magsafes. Now, since both companies load in 45 Colt is listed as +P I would call the company and see what they recommend as far as them being safe in your gun (assuming that its in good condition blah blah blah).
http://www.dakotaammo.net/products/glaser/glaser.htm
http://yp.bellsouth.com/sites/magsafeammo/page3.html

Steelheart
 

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I own "The Judge" ~ Like "The Judge" ~ And Never Tried To Get Anybody To Buy "The Judge"

I'm dumping more food for thought on you than the Old Fart did... The right Bullet for your Guns is always about what you plan on using it for...

I read "The Box O' Truth" web site all the time... and finding the same Disturbing thing in most tests... Not a vary good analysis of the Physics of what's happening in the test... I'm not disputing any of the data that was accumulated during the test... But, the data is just dumped in a pile, for the reader to make his own assumptions...<:-((
The testing is weak, and the analysis sucks...

1) Penetration. the FBI's 12" Gel FPE rule is used to reference a rounds ability to penetrate windshields, and car doors in Gun fights, stopping the BadGuy... (me and you would normally come up against Shirts & Jackets in Self Defence situations) If it was all about penetration, we would all be using FMJ's...
The Experts Say ~ Read the Info in this PDF file: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm
Also Read this: Here is two pages of Bullet Basics http://tinyurl.com/23huab

2) Now in this Link you will see that to shoot a BadGuy the Cops use Special Soft Hollow Points when shooting the BadGuy so as to get 100% of the Bullets energy into the BadGuy (a shoot through is wasted energy)... http://tinyurl.com/yv9sjp

3) The Test: 45LC... 14 1/2" Nice... But, it traveled 2 1/2" beyond the FBI 12" rule (a shootthrough Shot) 20% energy lost because there was to much penetration... The BadGuy did not absorb 100% of the Bullets energy... ( the old fart did say that it was a bad Bullet. What he meant, was that the bullet didn't slow down enough to stop by the Sacred 12"... Now lets expand on this a little. As seen in the GEL test in this Link: Gel testing the .32 ACP http://tinyurl.com/yel7nu A little .32 can get 15" penetration...!!!

4) The Test: OOO BuckShot... Lets clear up some more bad info & analysis... First off a OOO Buck ball is .360 not the .340 that was stated, check this Link: http://tinyurl.com/35z6nz and the next info that had No analysis was as follows... That "little .410" round in OOO Buckshot (3 balls) is roughly equivalent to Three rounds of 9mm - simultaneously delivered... The 9mm pistol may be criticized for a lack of stopping power, but there's no doubt that three .360 caliber balls delivered simultaneously packs a serious wallop...<:)) Now lets talk about the 4 1/2" of penetration of that Buck Ball, X 3 = 13 1/2" of penetration, and expanded to 45cal or more as seen in the test, and 100% of the energy absorbed by the BadGuy... Now how about that 4 1/2"... Put your finger on your chest, and think 4 1/2" deep... 4 1/2" puts 1 ball in each Lung, and 1 in the Heart using the Spacing, and Depth that was shown in the Test... I agree that I would like to see at least 2" more penetration, just for good measure... Yup, Dead soft lead balls...<:-(( This is a problem that was reveiled in the test... I must check my OOO Buck Winchesters to see if they use Chilled Hardened Lead Balls...???

5) The Test: .410 Slug... why would you... The gun shoots 45LC's out to a 100 yards, D'oh... My range test says all you need to know...

6) The Test: #6 bird shot... Don't get hit in the Face with it at 5 feet... BadGuy would die almost instantly from a brain shot through the eye sockets...

7) My own Range test below gives some general AMMO info... I actually tested a Full range of AMMO for the Judge... You can Buy every Size .410 Shot shells on the web... I did...!!!

Why is it that every time I go to "The Box O' Truth" web site I think of this LINK...???
http://tinyurl.com/ynweu5

Range Report... "THE JUDGE"

This Gun has a Medium Frame ~ It's just a Puppy ~ hehehe...<:))

Ahhhhhh, the Smell of Black Powder Burning in the Morning... "S W E E T" ...<:)) See Pics...

I said that I would get to the Range, and shoot all the listed AMMO...
Well I did, and I will tell you what I liked...

1) Black Dawge's Black Powder~Most Fun you can have at the Range shooting Double Action as fast as you can empty that Wheel... Just like a Cannon... A column of Smoke rolls out there about 10 feet, and a foot in Diameter... hehehe Cool...<:))

2) SilverTip Hollow Points~These were most accurate... I think the Jacket took the rifling the Best...<:)) It's a Killer... You know I will have two of these in Hole #4 & #5 of that Wheel...<:))

3) 7 1/2 & 6's Shot Winchester Super X HS~Snakes aren't going to like these...!!!...<:))

4) 4 Shot Winchester Super X HS~Bad Guy won't like these...!!! Good Pattern & Damn near went through a 2x4...Maybe some did...!!! OUCH...!!!...<:))

5) OOO BuckShot (.360)(3 Balls) ~ These are down right Killers, for Home Defense... Just Point and Shoot... not Aim and Shoot...<:)) I feel a little tingle Knowing what these Babe's will do...<:))

6) Rifled SLUG Hollow Points~Absolutely useless in this gun... The Gun don't shoot them... It Spits them... Hyper Fast~97Gr.~Don't touch the Rifling~some of them Key-Holing...

7) Nickel John Wayne's~Nice Big Bang... 250Gr. ... You know it's Deadly...

8) RNFP ULTRAMAX~Nice light shooter... You could shoot this all day at targets, and the Lady's Like this one the Best...

9) A-MERC~Good general Round... It will Kill anything you Hit With It...<:))

AMMO List:

45 Colt 250 Gr. LFN Winchester Nickel John Wayne's
45 Colt 200 Gr. RNFP ULTRAMAX
45 Colt 250 Gr. RNL A-MERC
45 Colt 235 Gr. RNFP GEOX Black Dawge's Black Powder
45 Colt 225 Gr. Winchester SilverTip Hollow Points Super X

.410 HighBrass 7 1/2 Shot Winchester Super X HS
.410 HighBrass 6 Shot Winchester Super X HS
.410 HighBrass 4 Shot Winchester Super X HS
.410 HighBrass OOO BuckShot (3 Balls) Winchester Super X HS
.410 HighBrass Rifled SLUG Hollow Points Winchester Super X HS

http://tinyurl.com/3ajthr
http://tinyurl.com/388ctd
http://tinyurl.com/2hnh77
 

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SteelHeart,...

+P But Not +P+

This is from page 4 of the Taurus catalog: +P RATED FOR DUTY USE®
All Taurus handguns are engineered to accept a steadydiet of factory-new Plus-P (+P) ammunition built to SAAMI specifications. This includes the Ultra-Lite hammer forged aluminum alloys, Titanium, blue steel and stainless steel models. Rest assured, your Taurus will be ready, especially when you’re counting on it.
 

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You hit the nail on the head sgt, I think 4.5 inches of penetration is plenty, expecially if there a three of them doing the same. I think the gelatine tests are overrated. The ballistics gel is supposed to be a flesh analog, but it's not perfect. Otherwise all the officers would use .223 pistols with a ballistic tip bullet since the expansion would be trememdous.
 

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In 45 Colt I would still confirm with the ammo manufacture on that. I don't believe that there is a real SAAMI spec for 45 Colt +P and I recall that some of those loads are up in the 44 magnum realm. Now, if SAAMI devised a +P spec for 45 Colt, than yes, I would trust it without reservations.

I'm comfortable with the Taurus Catalog/Manual specs for 38 Special, 9mm and 45 ACP, you know, the common ones that actually have a spec range for +P.

http://www.saami.org/ If you click on Member Companies, you will see that Taurus is listed!

Steelheart
 

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Demystifying +P

Taurus is a SAAMI Member, and only makes Guns to the SAAMI Standard...

The inside scoop on +P
http://tinyurl.com/2uj5ls
 

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Since you appear to not be listening I'll say it again. There is no standard rating for +P in 45 Colt. If you want to run the +P loads, go right ahead. I'm sure that the vendor will take you money. However, I wouldn't expect Taurus to honor their warranty if you damage the gun (or yourself) by using in appropriate loads.

Remember that the 45 Colt was originally a large frame cartridge. And that the Judge is a stretched medium frame gun, it just won't be as strong as a large frame, period. Now, if we were discussing a large frame (either the M44/M608 large frame or the Raging Bull frame) I'd say to just run the 45 Colt +P and be done with it. But we aren't. Firearms are inherently dangerous, especially when someone choses to act foolish.

Here's some links for reference (I don't mess with the tinyurl stuff, I'd rather be able to see where I'm heading):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpressure_ammunition (There's even a chart listing the +P cartridges)
http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellk.htm#+P (If you scroll down a bit there's another chart with pressure ratings)
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm (I think this chart was listed on one of the above pages but it lists a date of 2004 for the source info.)

Steelheart
 

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I too like to read the Box O Truth, and belong to their forum. I have never thought of the testing done there as either scientific, or comprehensive. I look on it as the same sort of testing that I do from time-to-time, a poor man's test that gives you some sort of idea how a bullet may perform, when compared with other ammo.
 

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Testing is just what it says. Testing. This using simulated things for real flesh. Testing is no substitute for performance in real world flesh. Never is. Never will be.

While this gives us some moderate idea of how things perform it still isn't human flesh and bone. So the tests are not vailid from a science stand point. Even if done in a lab.
No one has come up with a solid way to test for proper penetration,expansion, or wounding abilities.

What constitutes wounding factors can't be agreed on to any certainty because they don't know for sure what does and doesn't. Not even the scientists and doctors.

They all have ideas and SWAGs ( scientific wild a**ed guesses), but nothing totally substantive.

There are too many physical and mental variables that are just no taken into account or can be measured with any real accuracy.Which to measure and how? What's valid and what isn't.

Even the patholigists( Don't quote Fackler or any of his cronies to me) can't agree on any of this totally to this day. They just don't know or know how to measure some of the variables as there is no good way to do so and very well may never be able to do so.
Mental state and mindset are near impossible to quantify. No good way to do that.

There are those who have been struck with a .22lrf in the finger and gone into shock and died. Mas Ayoob and a couple others have that one documented.
Then there are those who became bullet sponges with "non survivable wounds", in many cases many of those type, and yet went on to kill and maim for minutes or hours.

Thompson /Legarde tests were proven false. Julian Hatcher values work only for ball ammo and not for JHP or LWSCHPs. Those are not going to work for todays loads for the most part.

The Department of Justice computer man tests were also invalid for many reasons.

Even the Stasbourg tests shooting Alpine goats while it had some bearing on things isn't totally valid either. It did give us some reaction or incapacitation info or how certain JHP and ball loads work on living animal approaching human build and weight are, but that is all it did. Nothing definitive.

The so called 'testing methods' we have today are all based on some sound ideas to a point but nothing else. A lot is left out. Anything else is second guessing.

Kind of like prediciting the weather. Around here for years they haven't gotten even a day or two right and then claim they can tell us with certainty what's going to happen days,months,years, decades, or in a millennium or two. It just isn't going to happen the way they say folks. Don't understand all the variables and how they impact all this.

So we use alternative methods to conduct what very limited testing we can do.
Also observe how the bullets perform in real world scenarios and under what conditions. How the bullets performed under different conditions and such. Not perfect, but using simulated flesh or other mediums just does not cut it in the real world. Nice, somewhat informative, but not overall evidence nor the utter truth.

Nothing wrong with some type of testing. Just don't go with the 'True and only way believers' mindset. The real world doesn't work that way.Neither should we or do we.

The target is not going to be impressed, living or not, with what they are hit with. It all depends on too many variables to count. Markmanship that is excellent can help take care of some of that. Not all.

Use a good to excellent JHP or LSWCHP. If one uses ball there are reasons why that is not a eithical or moral thing to do. This has to do with "conventional wisdom" that is not necessarily wise. This was not done wfor goring anyone's pet ox, but can see where it might get taken that way.

http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=1926.0
 

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Well said Qwiks; these factors will never be within our realm of understanding; quantifying aggression, motivation, violence, emotion, will power, determination ...ect. ect. ect. will forever be a mystery.
 

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The Judge will be my next gun. Anyone had any problems?
 

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I think the "box" does more so practical testing than scientific. That's what I like about it. It's more real world.
 

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muttmutt,.. I was just to the Range Monday... I will tell you of the thing I have found out owning "The Judge"...
First~ This is something that would only crop up at the Range, and not in a Home Defense situation...
when shooting 45LC's Black powder, and then switching to .410 shot gun shells you would find some sticking dropping them in the Chamber because there is an inch of chamber ahead of that 45 Bullet that gets all gunked up with Black Powder residue... I use a 50cal brush on a 6" pistol rod to Brush out them chambers before loading up them Shot Gun Shells... Nothing more fun at the Range than shooting Black Powder... I shoot a cylinder of Black Powder... and everybody gathers around to see what the Hell is going on... and then I put down a Box of 50 Black Dawge's, and turn the Judge over to 6 Gunner's I never met, and let them blow them off...!!! Things Really started to get Festive after I arrived at the Range... Its all smiles... Then I pull out the Shot Gun shells OOO Buck and we all Blow the Hell out of the Targets with the Judge... The Gunner's thought XMAS come early when I showed up... Great Fun...<:))

Second~ my Ribber Grip MOD cured the ONLY flaw I found...

These thing are all well explained in the Links below and I haven't had any Mechanical Problem..<:))

Cleaning the Judge 101:
http://www.rugerforum.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3370

Most fun you can have at the Range:
45 Colt 235 Gr. RNFP GEOX Black Dawge's Black Powder
http://www.cabelas.com/prod-1/0037466216113a.shtml

Taurus Ribber Grip MOD:
http://www.rugerforum.net/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3433
 
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