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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been favorably impressed with a number of Taurus handguns, and in the compact Millenium line in particular. I've held off purchasing one because I really prefer traditional double action handguns (long heavy first trigger pull for safety, short light follow-ups - or first shot if circumstances permit). I got to handle the new 24/7 OSS model with decocker and really like the lockwork. I hope Taurus makes a version of the compact Millenium Pro series with a safety/decocker like the OSS.

BUT, I read tonight on another web site about a technique for decocking the current Millenium Pro pistols by (as I recall) partially retracting the slide and then pulling the trigger with a round in the chamber while the slide is retracted. This was said to get you an uncocked (true double-action) first shot. But it was controversial - several other follow-up posts said they thought this would be very dangerous. I can certainly see some issues with pulling the trigger on a loaded firearm without intending to fire it. On the other hand, revolver shooters do this frequently (I've manually uncocked loaded revolvers, or semi-autos without decockers like the original CZ75s, many times without incident by pulling the trigger and easing the hammer down with my thumb). That said, I'm not sure about pulling the trigger on a striker-fired handgun and counting on it not firing because the slide is partially open.

Please bear in mind that I haven't tried this, may not be explaining it properly or completely, and don't know if it is dangerous or not. PLEASE DON"T TRY THIS WITHOUT CONFIRMING ITS SAFETY ELSEWHERE. I haven't tried it, but I'm curious about what others think and have experienced. They guy who posted about it said that if the slide is retracted, the gun won't fire, and he keeps it pointed in a safe direction to decock it using this method, so he thinks it is safe. I'm inclined to agree, though it would be much better if they'd just give us a decocker version.

Also, I wonder if it would be possible to recock the gun without ejecting the round in the chamber by partially retracting the slide. I have an SW99 (like a Walther P99) that works this way. It has a decocker button, but you can recock the gun by retracting the slide about 1/4".

Anyway, I'm very interested to hear what Taurus owners think of this decocking technique. I know that most are comfortable with the cocked and locked method and that it works fine - I just prefer the added safety of a true double-action first shot trigger (but not a DAO pistol). Thanks.

Doug
 

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I'd think that the technique you describe would be a good way to get into that negligent discharge club. I'm not sure but theoretically it might be possible but I suspect that if you're off a very small fraction of an inch you will get a loud bang. IF you are very lucky after that you won't be visiting with the local LE afterwards (or whatever you family choses to do to you when they find out).

On TDA (Traditional Double Action aka DA/SA) guns when you re-apply the safety you should be safely dropping the hammer. Then, if you don't want to carry the gun with the safety engaged you flip it off. This would give you your DA trigger pull first time around and the SA thereafter, unless you engage the safety again. I know that this is how my makarov works and thats how I carry it (hammer down, safety off). And the other TDA pistols I've had all worked this way as well.

And on the vast majority of service type pistols once the slide it retracted much/any it will no longer fire. Especially if you think about the mechanism. The trigger system is in the frame and what you are trying to effect is in the slide and by moving the slide you are moving it away from, well, I hope you get the idea because it's difficult to explain by typing. This is intended to be a safety mechanism so that the gun won't fire with the breech open.

Cocked and Locked generally refers to an SA only type of gun (ala 1911) where all your trigger pulls are all single action. This would not apply to the Mill Pro's as far as I know. Unless someone here can tell me that they are capable of SA carry. I know that the CZ family can go both ways and a few other variants of common service pistols can.

Steelheart
 

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The trigger will only pull with the slide barely retracted, refer to steelhart's 3rd paragraph.
At first I thought no way this will safely work, then I got the gun out.

WITH NO ROUND IN CHAMBER I racked the slide to cock(go to SA), I then pulled the slide back just enough to drop the chamber down and pulled the trigger, the trigger pulls back but no click, release the slide and you are back to DA (de-cocked). There is NO WAY I will ever do this with a round in the chamber, at least without expecting it to fire, I say do not try this!

Steel, once you rack the slide to put one in the chamber the mil pro is SA carry right?

If you wanted to carry the mil pro dao(if you even can safley de-cock), you will have to rack the slide to cock it before you can fire, (only 1/4-1/2")but/so you might as well carry it with chamber empty.

Sound correct?
 

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I would definately not do this. These theoretical experimental ideas can be dangerous, and I'm sure Taurus would frown on usage of their product in this manner. Might also lead to warranty issues. Follow manufacturers recommendations for safe operation. If this was an accepted practice, the manufacturer would include it in the manual.
 

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The only TDA gun around here is my makarov and I know that it will safely de-cock when the safety is engaged. Everything else either is DAO of one form or another, SA (1911) or has a cylinder.

The other thing to remember about the fact that the gun won't fire if the slide is slightly retracted, if you are in a close hand to hand fight and your gun is out, if you end up jamming the gun into your attacker's body it likely won't fire as you will have pushed the slide back. Needless to say, revolvers don't have this problem.

Steelheart
 

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I don't think it does. While I'm pretty sure this does work, I in no way recommend it. I just wonder if taurus intended it this way. It would make me feel a lot better carrying de-cocked.
 

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I think it would work ... but I would rather carry SA with the safety on than risk an accidental discharge potentially hurting myself or someone else.
 

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Thats why I carry condition 3. I practice over and over and over and well you get the point. I would say over the last year I have been carrying and the 6 months or so before I got my CCL I practiced the draw, rack, aim, fire about 500-1000 times each day or every other day. I have since become very very fast at this and now feel comfortable carring condition 3. Its not for everyone but you have to find something you feel comfortable with and stick to it. If you prefer the DAO first shot with SA there after maybe you should carry another weapon and save your Mil Pro for the range. Just my 2 pennys worth lol
 

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Condition three is having a full magazine in place, but no round in the chamber. Can carry the pistol without worrying about a round going off for any reason with the chamber empty.This is or was a common method of carry for 1911 or 1911 clone pistol carry. One has to draw, rack the slide and chamber a round safely. This is the way the Israeli military carries their sidearms. The upside is it is a safe and almost fool proof way to carry a pistol. Down sides are needing two hands to bring the gun into action to make it ready or if one has an injured arm,hand or shoulder out of commision then charging the gun is near impossible. One may need to ward off a weapon or knock the attacker away or off balance if they are close in to the defender. There are advanced courses that teach how to rack the slide one handed and the different ways and places to hold the gun while doing this. Since a majority of attacks are surprise, quick,sudden, and " in your face" it could be difficult or impossible to due under stress or in the short time allowed as one reacts to the threat. Action beats reaction every time. There are minor exceptions to that rule. If one sees the threat ahead of time one can then use this method to meet it. For some tactical situations it is a very good method of carry. For others it may not work when needed most. Depends on a persons awareness as well, but we can not be in" condition yellow or orange" all the time. People will let their guard down eventually due to any number of reasons. That's called condition white. Yellow condition is being aware of what is going on all around you. Orange means that you detected a possible threat and are going up a notch and preparing yourself for the attack mentally and physically. Red is going into action and black is already being in the fight. One has to pick the type of carry 1,2,or 3.One is a loaded Single action pistol cocked, on safe, and with a cartridge in the chamber. Two is a pistol with a round in the chamber,but the hammer is down,uncocked and at rest. The safety might be on or off. There may be no safety at all in condition 2 on many makes and models of pistol. So one has to pick the best carry condition for them and is the safest for them as well. The reason for condition three is that a safety can be accidently wiped off safe by everday physical movement or something making physical contact with the safety. Could be the holster itself rubbing or bumping something , physical jostling, or all the contortions and body movements that one makes in a day and the safety could be wiped off safe without the user knowing about it. One know has a pistol that any accidental trigger movement or bumping of the hammer could set the gun off. SA semi-autos have very light trigger pulls compared to DA models. This happens more frequently than the normal public might know. Happens to even people who are veterans at this sort of thing.Having a negligent discharge, even unexpectedly, will ruin the user's or someone else's day. So it is safer to carry with a pistol in condition three.Training and experience will usually keep one from an ND from happening with an SA pistol. But it happens enough to warrant condition 3 carry for those who want to.In IDPA the range officer makes sure the pistol chamber is empty and locked and cocked pistols are not ususally allowed,except on command at the start of scenario. The owners are also reponsible to see to it that the guns are unloaded, chamber empty, no magazine in the well, and the hammer is down with the safety on. So pick your method of carry and be proficient with your draw.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thanks for the comments and information. I'm still undecided about this (I haven't had a chance to actually handle a Millenium Pro since I read about this technique). I understand that many prefer carrying cocked with the safety on, or without a round in the chamber, or even cocked without the safety on (which, while it sounds dangerous to me, isn't much different from a Glock or many other pistols that are designed to be carried cocked - or at least mostly cocked - without a manual safety). BUT, for those of us who prefer the traditional double-action mode (long heavy first trigger pull for safety, light follow-ups), having the ability to uncock these handguns would be a big plus. And there aren't many other handguns in this size, weight, and caliber that offer this traditional double action option (almost all are either DAO or have semi-cocked glock-like triggers like Kahr, Kel-Tec, etc.).

So, I'd like to hear how doing this (assuming it works as I've read) is more dangerous than, for example, manually uncocking a pistol like a CZ-75 that lacks a decocker. I'm fine doing this - I keep it pointed in a safe direction and am very careful that my thumb lets the hammer down easily when I pull the trigger. Of course, if I slipped the gun could fire (embarrasing, but not dangerous, since I only do this with the gun pointed in a safe direction). I've been manually uncocking handguns since the mid 1970s without a problem. The process is essentially the same with a revolver (who hasn't cocked one and then decided not to fire at that moment after all?).

So, provided I firmly hold the slide back a sufficient distance to prevent firing when I pull the trigger, is there really a significant danger of the gun firing? I really don't know, but I suspect not. I get the impression that the people who say it is dangerous: (1) have little interest in being able to decock their pistols (no motivation), and (2) have a knee-jerk reaction to pulling the trigger of a loaded gun without intending to fire it (but that's really pretty common with revolvers and some semi-autos, as refrenced above). One issue I see is being sure the slide is back far enough to prevent firing before pulling the trigger. Also, I'm not sure how reliable the mechanism is that prevents firing when the slide isn't fully closed (but the same could be said for a decocker).

Anyway, I certainly don't mean to advocate or recommend an unsafe practice, but because this would be very appealing to me and others who prefer the heavier first trigger pull, I'd like to hear exactly WHY this is more dangerous than, for example, manually uncocking a CZ75.

It's a little ironic that in order to have a safer carry mode (uncocked), I'm considering a practice than many consider unsafe. Oh well, I'm certainly not ready to recommend or try this, but I'd like to know more about it before I completely rule it out.

Doug
 

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Doug... you have to know that because the MilPro (like the other striker fired guns - glock, kel-tec, etc) has no external hammer, there is no perfect indicator of just WHEN the magic point comes. If you pull the slide back too far... when you pull the trigger it will simply reset and you are exactly where you began. If you don't pull it back far enough you run the outside risk of an accidental discharge. The instant you get careless with this approach you will loose fingers.

When you study the dynamics of the SA system... a "decocker" would be a simple addition for Taurus to add, however, without a true "decocker" you are running the risk of a problem every time you attempt it...

BUT IF you want to try to MASTER THIS TECHNIQUE then here is where it seems to work on my gun. PLEASE DON'T attempt this if you are not willing to spend some time with some EMPTY PRIMED HULLS. ALSO, make sure you are working will a full magazine (preferably of snap caps)... the dynamics of the slide movement WILL BE AFFECTED by the pressure of a full clip of round pushing up against the slide. That way if it does go "bang" it will only scare you and not shoot your big toe off! After about six times of making this technique work successfully, I got my hand really sooty when the primer went off. I'll have to think long and hard about this... 1 in 6 aren't odds I feel comfortable with!

 

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"Defensive weapon conditions"



The state of a weapon:

Condition Zero: Full magazine, round chambered, hammer cocked, safety off.


Condition One: Full magazine, round chambered, hammer cocked, safety on.


Condition Two: Full magazine, round chambered, hammer down, safety off.


Condition Three: Full magazine, chamber empty.


Condition Four: Full magazine separate from weapon, chamber empty.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Cimarron,
Thanks for sharing your experience - that definately makes me rethink using this technique. Could you elaborate on what happened when the gun fired the primer? Did the gun actually fire while the slide was partially open, or did it go off when you closed the slide after having pulled the trigger, or did you mistakenly pull the trigger while the slide was closed? I'd be a little concerned about any semi-auto that will fire when the slide isn't fully forward (what if while shooting you pull the trigger before the slide closes between shots - would it fire out of battery?).

Also, thanks for posting the photo showing how far to open the slide (though given your 1 in 6 experience, I wonder if it is enough). I would think you'd open it as far as possible without ejecting the cartridge or causing a jam - but maybe thats what it shows.

It would sure be nice if Taurus would just make a version with a decocker so we woudn't be tempted to try these potentially dangerous workarounds. Anyway, thanks again.

Doug
 

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This is a very simple answer to this. Taurus did not figure that people who owned these pistols would try something like this considering how dangerous a thing it is to do. They do not have to tell one not to stick the barrel in front of ones face and pull the trigger either, because we can all figure out the dire consequences as a result of doing this. The 4 major safety rules for safe firearm handling cover most of things to avoid and to cover practically all the possible dangerous things that could happen with a firearm. Not this one. Why should the factory have to put a warning on all the guns telling a person what not to do like the rediculous labels for example telling one not to use one's iron on one's self to take out wrinkles out of clothes. We know that dangerous 2nd,3rd and 4th degree burns would result? Taurus gives credit to the users in the fact they figure we are more on the ball and will avoid doing dangerous things that can get us hurt or killed.It' s that way with cars, sharp implements,tools and anything else.If a mouse could reason, then if he stuck his head in the trap, and got his head taken off, he is the one who did it on his own volition and it is nobody elses fault or responsibility to see that the mouse kept his head out of the trap literally and figuratively.Same thing for people. One needs to understand as much as possible how the mechanical tool works and functions. Start fiddling with things one does not understand and major hurt is just around the corner. So experience and having someone explain this stuff simply goes a long way to comprehending what is going on. Reading books or magazine articles on the inner workings of most guns is another way to stay up on this. There may be such info on the internet somewhere.that shows and discusses the inner workings of guns. The more one knows the more one can make an informed decision.
 

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I could try this safely with a pencil in the barrel... only for curiosity. I don't plan to alter the intended carry method.
 
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