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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
How far up the dollar chain do you have to get before you get better than the paper plate accuracy I've read here is it for 24/7's? I'd prefer to practice on grape fruits rather than watermelons, so to speak.

JimL
 

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Well, gee, that is the 64 thousand dollar question in a lot of minds.

I would love the answer.

With a 6.5" 45 colt I am in the orange or lemon stage. With 4.5 inch 22 single action I am at the large melon area. With the PT111 3.25 inch, I feel good if all 12 are inside an 81/2 by 11 sheet.

Dollars in guns, from 450 down to 170, time and ammo, 45 about 175 rounds, and two months. 22 single action 100 rds, and 2 days. PT111 about 3 weeks and probably 450 rds so far.

I am frustrated, because I cannot shoot the smaller guns as accurately as I can the heavy hitter. Some say be happy your in the center mass area, but its gonna take a lot of work apparently to get tighter with the short barreled guns.

If that is what you mean, I know frustration to the max.
 

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Why don't you shoot from a benchrest and determine the accuracy of the gun that way. Once known, strive for that while shooting offhand.

By doing so, you can at least determine whether its the equipment (gun/ammo) or the shooter.
 

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Yeah your right, Guess I will have to build a bench, mount either sand bag, or something for a rest and try it. I do most of my shooting on my own farm, where I marked off a range up to 25 yards, and I am only up to about 12 yards out so far.

Darn now you got me thinking what I could use to make a stable sturdy bench that I could sit behind. And it is supposed to snow tomorrow nite, so I am gonna have to hurry up.
 

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JimL said:
How far up the dollar chain do you have to get before you get better than the paper plate accuracy I've read here is it for 24/7's? I'd prefer to practice on grape fruits rather than watermelons, so to speak.

JimL
Don't take this the wrong way but accuracy is achieved through the shooter not the firearm. With my 24/7 .40 S&W I can put all 16 rounds in a 4-inch circle at 25 yards. So you don't have to spend the big money if you want accuracy...just practice, practice, practice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
NYPD in AZ said:
Don't take this the wrong way but accuracy is achieved through the shooter not the firearm. With my 24/7 .40 S&W I can put all 16 rounds in a 4-inch circle at 25 yards. So you don't have to spend the big money if you want accuracy...just practice, practice, practice.
No offense taken. It's just that I've seen quite a few comments like, "After all, it isn't a match gun!" And, "Just get it into the center mass somewhere." Or, "I can get it into a paper plate and that's good enough."

I have no illusions about the "one ragged hole," criterion, but I'm bothered by a philosophy that minimizes accuracy. Frankly I won't be happy outside 2 inch groups at 25 yards (in slow fire, of course).

JimL
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Robby said:
I am frustrated, because I cannot shoot the smaller guns as accurately as I can the heavy hitter.
I wonder if this has as much to do with heavy guns as heavy hitters. On the force I carried a heavy barreled Model 10 and shot pretty well with it. I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with the light barreled version.

JimL
 

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I would say it's more related to the shooter and his ammunition than it is how high up on the dollar chain the particular firearm is.

For example, there are shooters who can make a 25 cent size hole at 25 yards with a relatively cheap gun and then there are shooters who have a hard time staying in the black at that same range with an expensive Sig or HK.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
PTDOUDE said:
For example, there are shooters who can make a 25 cent size hole at 25 yards with a relatively cheap gun and then there are shooters who have a hard time staying in the black at that same range with an expensive Sig or HK.
OK, but how is it that a fair number of tests of different guns in a machine rest give groups over 2 inches?

JimL
 

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All things being equal, I would attribute the gun test differences to each gun having different personalities. In other words, not all guns of the same brand and model are manufactured identically. If, on the other hand, the variation is substantial between the guns in a machine rest and the results consistently show that the less expensive gun gives larger groups than the more expensive one, then I would say that price/quality is a major factor in that particular case.

What I have found is that my aim and grip is not good enough to be able to tell the difference between shooting, say a Taurus and a Sig. If both fired from a machine rest and the Sig gave a .25" group at 25 yards and the Taurus gave a .75" at the same distance I would still opt to buy the Taurus for roughly 1/3 of the cost of the Sig for the simple reason that I probably wouldn't be able to notice any difference in accuracy by shooting either one off hand since I'm not that good of a shot with a pistol.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
PTDOUDE said:
If both fired from a machine rest and the Sig gave a .25" group at 25 yards and the Taurus gave a .75" at the same distance I would still opt to buy the Taurus for roughly 1/3 of the cost of the Sig for the simple reason that I probably wouldn't be able to notice any difference in accuracy by shooting either one
I'll try to say this without being rude, but I asked about machine rest groups in excess of 2 inches and you replied with references to as low as 1/4 inch. We would seem to be on two different subjects.

To be sure, a lot of people can't shoot as well as their guns - as a general principle. I doubt many here would argue that.

But rather than a general principle about shooters, I was talking about and asking about guns - shooting badly in a machine rest, and I specified group variations at least 3 times greater than what you seem to be telling me is standard in even cheap guns.

Perhaps the guys testing these guns are lying when they say some shoot 2 inch plus groups from a machine rest? Perhaps they are lying when they say they found that to be fine with them?

Again, I have no disagreement with the fact that most people aren't "as good as their guns." But MY subject in this thread is gun accuracy, Taurus accuracy, not shooter accuracy. And I am getting contradictory responses from different places, including those outside this forum.

JimL
 

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The figure I used reflected no particular incident, but was used just to make my point, but if you're seeing a 2-3" difference in groups fired from a machine rest between a "high end" pistol vs. a "low end" pistol then I'd have to go with the obvious and that is the cheapy gun is inferior....that particular gun anyway.

As far as your specific inquiry about "Taurus accuracy", I don't think there is a definite answer. I would venture to guess that there are plenty of Taurus' out there that are more accurate out of the box than a good many more expensive guns, so, again, price payed for a handgun is not the criteria that determines accuracy. As far as Taurus handguns go, the ones that I have fired seem as accurate as any other pistols of the same style that I've fired, so I don't think there can be a solid answer to your question, IMO anyway.
 

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JimL said:
OK, but how is it that a fair number of tests of different guns in a machine rest give groups over 2 inches?

JimL
Good question. I'm an action shooter, so I'm clueless as to what my accuracy would be, but being an avid handgun mag reader, I see plenty of reviews with high end guns that can't accomplish that. Also see guns that can when using specific brands of ammo but not with other brands of ammo. Groups often differ by an inch or two just due to ammo. Don't see too many guns of any cost that get below 2" at this range.

So, bench the pistol, and run different brands of ammo through it. This should establish the brand your gun likes best AND the type of accuracy you can expect. Next, try to accomplish that.

If, BTW, you are in the 2" to 3" range, you have a pretty darn good pistol (again, based on the reviews I've been seeing).

The next logical question for you to ask is what type of groups are folks on this forum capable of shooting and with what pistol.

What are you trying to accomplish? e.g. are you a Bullseye shooter? Or, are you an action shooter? For me, a pistol that shoots a 4" group at 25 yrds is more than adequate. I just have to hit 8" plates.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
prickett said:
I see plenty of reviews with high end guns that can't accomplish that. Also see guns that can when using specific brands of ammo but not with other brands of ammo. Groups often differ by an inch or two just due to ammo.
Exactly.

The next logical question for you to ask is what type of groups are folks on this forum capable of shooting and with what pistol.

What are you trying to accomplish? e.g. are you a Bullseye shooter? Or, are you an action shooter?
I'm just a novice trigger puller who is trying to figure out who's right - so I have something realistic to aim for - the people who say all guns can shoot a hole the size of a quarter or those who say that's way too much to expect of a "cheap" gun.

And, BTW, I got my question from other people's comments. I didn't originate the idea of cheap guns having poor accuracy. (I say that knowing you, personally, aren't saying I did.)

JimL
 

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Good topic. I have been thinking that it would be a neat idea if there was another section here just on accuracy. It would be where the shooter reported what they experienced.
Some of the info could be ammo, amount or rounds shot and how many total shots had been through that gun, weather (temp.) etc...
Would make for good search results. And help others with that same model.
 

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I think it is hard to use price alone to determine the answer to your question. If you state, all things being equal, it should help qualify it. By all things, if we are using a machine rest, I would be referring to barrel length, type of bore (hexagonal, octagonal, land and groove), and all must be based on ammo from the same lot.

I think I understand your question. To me, it reads "what accuracy am I getting for my money? What would I get for $100, $200, or $500 more? What do I have to spend to get the accuracy I seek?" Is that what you are trying to answer?

Even at that, it would be hard to say "JimL, if you spend $600 you'll be shooting grapes at 25 yards."

I wouldn't mind running a few pistols through the machine rest to check thier accuracy, then look at what each one costs. However, I don't have a machine rest or know anyone who does. If I had one, I'd run a bunch of guns for you to help answer your question.

The gun magazines seem to give some objective answers on accuracy, but then you have to look at the ammo they are shooting. As Prickett mentioned, accuracy from the ammo can easily vary by an inch or more at 25 yards. And anyone who says they are (consistently) shooting grapes at 25 yards with a handgun is lying. Even the most accurate ammo will vary by a grape. That is why the magazines use groups, not single shots.

I'm interested to see where this goes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
kingofwylietx said:
I think I understand your question. To me, it reads "what accuracy am I getting for my money? What would I get for $100, $200, or $500 more?
Truth be told, my question was somewhat rhetorical. I've read a number of comments here saying things like, "After all, this isn't a match gun, you can't expect..." when the subject wasn't even remotely about match shooting.

The obvious thing to take away from comments like that is that some Taurus guns don't shoot very well. Perhaps I was hoping to hear someone say, "Those guys are wrong. Taurus guns are all accurate unless a beastie slips through."

No doubt it isn't totally unrelated that some folks recommend getting as good as you can, while some seem to say, don't sweat it - a body is pretty big and easy to hit. I suppose I was hoping Taurus didn't think the latter way. "Just throw it together; it's a self-defense gun."

JimL
 

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From what I've read in magazines,most guns can shoot fairly tight groups from a rest, no matter what the cost. Most of us don't have a rest and shooting while standing and holding a handgun out in front of you at arms length if probably the least accurate.
Just what would you like to see in shooting a handgun at 25yds. Except for a few people 1 ragged whole at that distance is just a dream. 3 or 4 inch groups would be grapefruit not watermelon unless the fruit you buy is really small.

Now from what I understand as guns get smaller the less accurate they are. Shorter barrel and shorter distance between the front and rear sight just add up to a less accurate gun when shooting freehand. Thats why most magazines don't tell you what the writer shot without a rest.

Even the games I play on the computer have the sights moving when standing. More for a handgun then a rifle. Being a human being we all have a natural movement that makes shooting while standing very hard.

Even professional big game hunter will do everything possible to negate this from happening. Going prone with a rifle will make a big difference for a long shot with a very accurate rifle. Seldom will you read about a one shot kill at over 300 yards while standing. Possible but not likely.

I even read that the old mauser 98's used during WWII would be test fired for groupings to see which ones were to be called Sniper rifles. Minor differences in manufacturing can make a big difference in performance. Not sure of any company that mass produces guns that can say that all their guns can achieve a consistenty accurate firearm. Well maybe the real expensive ones. But even those will change with what ammo is used.

Mostly I think that the person doing the shooting is the biggest problem. Most of us just aren't that good a shot. From what I've read about the guns that I shoot, from a rest at 25yds they are fairly accurate. I think a handgun has a limited use. I carry for self defense and putting all shots in a 2" group at 25 yds during a high stress situation would be unlikely. I'd be moving, they'd be moving. I'm old and never had a steady hand. And given that most gunfights are over so quickly I'd be happy to come out alive. And it's really hard to train for that, costs alot and you have to keep practicing to keep up that level of accuracy.

If you are looking for something for competition look at what the winners are using. They aren't your run of the mill guns.They are also something that are useless for much else. I doubt any of them take those guns camping or boating let alone carry concealed.They also shoot hundreds of rounds every day just so they can win some trophy. It all depends on what your looking for from a gun and what you want do do with it.
 

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The specs for a target pistol and a combat pistol are two seperate animals.
A target gun has a tight fit, light strikes and can jam.
A combat pistol has a loose fit so it should always work. It will not have a light trigger, or be used in bullseye compition.
Some people say they have both. (right) :rolleyes:
A gun is a tool. You don't use a screwdriver to drive nails and you don't use a hammer for a wrench. But some people try.
As far as accuracy goes if the gun fits my hand better than yours I'll win.
Get a pistol that fits you and sights that you like. Then shoot it. You will amaze people with how well YOU shoot brand X pistol and they can barely stay on the paper with it.
Don't let a gun rag or net guru tell you what is best. Like my uncle used to say "If we all liked the same thing there would only be one brand of anything"
 

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Jim, How far is your grapefruit? My well used pt-945 can hit orange at 15 yds all day long. So does my $200 Bersa 380. Thats with two hands unsupported. Just because it is inexpensive does not necessary mean inaccurate. Sure, if you are looking for 1" at 25 yds, then you will need to look for custom pistols. For 2"-3" @ 25 yds, there are a lot of guns under $600.
 
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