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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
My most viewed and commented thread was on a comparison of 9mm to 357 out of a snub nose revolver that was done by Mac over at the Military Arms Channel.
https://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/firing-line/397743-9mm-spanks-38-special-rivals-357-magnum.html

I followed up with a stand alone review of the Taurus 905 I purchased for comparing 9mm to 357.
https://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/...review-9mm-snubby-better-than-38-special.html

I recently picked up another 605 in polished stainless with a 2.5 inch barrel to compare with my new 605 with the 2 inch barrel and the 905. First I will discuss the old 605:
P1030240.jpg
This 605 was made in 1996 and is the pre-lock version. It came from Gunbroker and my total OTD was $265. The internals were a gooey mess and the stainless finish was tarnished. As I do with all my revolvers, I deep cleaned all parts, soaked then in CLP overnight. Cleaned and polished all action surfaces, then I begin the process of finding the correct DA and SA spring combinations to be a safe, but accurate carry pistol. NOT POCKET CARRY however - if you are going to pocket carry stick to the original springs, also if you aren't willing to train with a few hundred rounds including holster protocols, then again do not get the trigger lightened.
P1030243.JPG
After the cleanup I did some light polishing to the exterior surfaces and it shined up very nice. I blacked out the rear integrated channel sight and added a dab of white paint to the front site. That is a necessity with this finish, the matte sight channel, rear sight and the front blade are all the exact same shade, and the front sight gets lost when lining up a shot.
I also replaced the Hogue monogrip with another Uncle Mike's 59008 combat grip ( yes I found two of these relics in less than one month ), this grip hands down is best at grip control and recoil moderation available for the Taurus small frame revolvers..IMHO.
P1030245.jpg
So lets discuss these three Taurus snub nose revolvers and answer the question I posed in my subject line, is 9mm better then 357 out of a snub nosed revolver. First lets talk about each revolver and what it brings to the discussion.
The new Taurus 605 with the 2" barrel weighed 23oz's. Here is the full review:https://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/...inless-review-workhorse-boudoir-revolver.html. The new 605 has upgrades from the pre-lock version. Overall the action on the prelock while very similar, does have a few shortcuts. The hammer strut relief cut on the hammer is a simple squared out slot - where the new 605 uses a more balanced cutout allowing more depth for the upper arm, and room for movement - less wear over time. Both hammer and trigger struts were better finished and were smooth enough I didn't have to mod them.
Both the 905 and the older 605 struts needed sanding and polishing. I was able to spring down the new 605 to a smooth 8lbs DA and a crisp 3.5lb SA. I find this a perfect combo for me. The 905 was able to get to 11 lbs DA and 4 lbs SA, the older 605 however would only operate with the original hammer spring but I was able to lighten up the trigger spring. It now has a 13lb DA and a crisp 3lb SA pull. Now all three of these revolvers had light usage and probably will smooth out even more over time.
P1030241.jpg
Getting a bit too technical here, so time for another pic of the old 605. Ok now that I got your attention again - lets get geeky.
Old prelock specs: This version of the Taurus 605 weighs 22.9 oz's unloaded. It required complete disassembly of the cylinder, to fix hard indexing and grinding when ejecting shells. This was simply cleaning off old factory lube, crud, and a light polish to the bearing surfaces of the cylinder shaft. It is 6 7/8" long, 5" tall, and 1.37" wide. It shoots to point of aim and as with all revolvers for me it is more accurate with 357 loads.
P1030249.jpg
Here is a target set at 15 yards showing the accuracy of this older 605, and I can say it was slightly better than my new 605. This is probably due to the slightly longer barrel even with that heavier DA pull. By the way I only use DA when using and testing revolvers now. It is imperative we be able to use a revolver with stress shooting in mind. If you only shoot SA to get a better target hit, you are cheating yourself. Learn how to use that DA trigger. Ok you hung in there so now the dessert, is a 9mm revolver better than a 38/357 revolver?

After shooting these three snubbies , my S&W j frames, and a ruger SP101. I have to say - sorry guys - 9mm while very accurate is simply not better out of a snubby. The recoil impulse of the 9mm is equal to standard pressure 357. I may be a bit biased - let me explain. My first shots out of the 905 using the bootgrip, caused significant buzz to the nerves in my right hand (I now have damage to that nerve and swelling back by my wrist from those shots) . I did use an Uncle Mike's combat grip during subsequent testing, and that tamed that straight line impulse, but proved to me, two snubbies with the same size, weight, and grips had equal recoil in both 9mm and 357. Recoil was Mac's reason for recommending a 9mm over 357. But...there is always a but - For me to achieve equal accuracy I have to use 357, and the stellar clips make reloading the 905 considerably faster. However those stellar clips, both Taurus and TK are hard to load and unload, and require some maintenance to keep them flat. Both versions tend to bend with use. I can say using my real world testing that while an intriguing concept , a revolver caliber shoots better in a revolver in real world use. Also standard 357 SD loads do more terminal damage than standard 9mm SD loads.

This has been a fun trip, (except for the nerve damage). I shot hundreds of rounds in all three calibers out of several revolvers. I plan on selling off the 905 because my right hand demands justice:mad:. It is beautiful, and a good weight and size for carry. But a younger person would shoot it better without 63 old abused wrist nerves and tendons. I must admit I shoot from 400 to 1000 rounds a month out of several platforms, and my wrists get mucho abuse. I will sell it with both the boot grip and a Hogue monogrip, along with the 5 new TK stellar clips. to sweeten the deal for my gun show dealer. I plan on keeping both 605's for now as they are great shooters. Thanks for reading my review. Get a new shooter out to the range and be an ambassador for our community.
 

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Trust me older taurus revolvers are the best...i have plenty of them.. the newer ones are hit and miss...if u get a good one great but if u dont your gonna be dealing with customer service and trust me u dont wanna deal with that.
 

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This thread is some of the best string theory I've read. Nice.

One thing I'd add is yet another .357 advantage; between .357 and .38, the variety of loads/bullets is simply staggering. Wadcutters, semiwadcutters, hollow point semiwadcutters, fmj, etc.

I was just wondering how the recoil and impulse of the Ruger LCR 9mm would compare to the Taurus 905? Anyone shoot them back to back?
I've shot .357 snubs and a pretty small 9mm, the Kimber Micro. I'd say the 9mm is going to feel gentler, but I'd also not be surprised if someone else shot the same two, or a similar two, and came to the opposite conclusion. It's close, in other words.
 

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I would def go with the older 605...first reason is the older taurus revolvers where built alot better than the ones sold today.. second 357 mag is a lot stronger than 9mm even from a snub.

I have a 1996 and a 2006 model 605ss2 and both are better guns then the guns made today especially the finishes.. I also prefer the 357 mag over a 9mm cartridge.
 

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Make my 9 a subcompact semi-auto. Just sayin'. But, you don't need the moon clips just to shoot a 9mm revolver. Just take a small screw driver to eject the empties. It beats messing with the clips IMHO.

GH....."string theory".... :rofl:
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
That's "silverstring theory" . a much more explainable relationship of particle interaction. If its pretty and shoots it interacts with my unified theory and the associated electromagnetic forces to force me to buy it. Take that Einstein....
.....
 
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I'm more into Brain theory, myself. I theorize I once HAD a brain, just don't know where it went. :D
 

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Obviously, you get more flexibility with a .357 Magnum vs. 9mm. Shooting 9mm from a revolver seems novel and performance is pretty decent. One thing that often gets overlooked, and this applies to an even greater degree as the revolver goes down in weight is the fact that in .38/.357, bullets have cannelures for roll crimping them into place, and keeping them that way until they are fired. With the Taper Crimp on the 9mm cartridge, bullets can "jump" with enough recoil force.

And then if you handload for the .357 you have lots of options including replicating the ballistics of all three, .38, 9mm and .357.

Then there is another option in handloading. A cartridge I call the .357 Short Magnum. This started some years ago when my shooting partner bought a 627 - 7 shot .357 that didn't like to eject full-length case loads. There are other merits, naturally, like easier ejection from short revolvers that have short ejector rods. The last being faster reloads with a speed-loader.

Just make sure that you use .357 MAGNUM cases that are trimmed to .38 Sp. length. Many believe that .38 Sp.cases today are just shorter .357s. That's not quite right I learned from occasionally loading 9mm 124 gr. JHPs. The trimmed case will be thicker where you need it, plus, you never want to rum the risk of getting your rounds mixed up if they are all loaded in .38 Sp. cases.

There may be an upcoming article at Western Powders in the coming months. I haven't been making them for a while, but a while back my shooting partner picked up a pristine S&W M66 with a 2 1/2" barrel. I'm currently looking for a special used deal and the editor of the Western blog and a few others are keenly interested as well.;)

Editing for Safety Warning! The .357 Shprt Magnum loads I mentioned are very specialized and as you probably know, no such data exists. You simply can't put .357 Magnum Powder Charges in the shortened cases. I have never even used a magnum type powder in these loads, and one of the things that makes them more efficient when fired from short barrels. I can help in the reloading section, but all of the risk is yours, not mine, nor TaurusArmed.net!
 
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If given the choice between the two.......

....I'm going with the .357

Why?......because it's so much cooler to say ".357 Magnum".....

IMG_2958.jpg



....Yeah....I'm shallow.
 

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The Achilles tendon of the .357 Mag, is that it's an 84 year old spin off of the 120 year old .38 Special, a cartridge that took birth in the black powder era. With the better performing powders, materials and ammunition components of today, why not come up with an updated, more efficient cartridge instead?

I don't like using 9 mm Luger ammo in revolvers. It belongs in the bottom feeder genus of handguns.

This S&W New Departure shoots the .38 S&W, 2nd from bottom. Loaded with a 158gr. LRFN, 2.2grs. W231. Pictured below it is a 9 mm Luger dummy round. Above is a .357 Mag and .38 Spl., both sporting 158 gr. HP's. The .38 Spl. holds 3.3 grs. of N-100, yet this same .38 brass will accept 19 grs. of N-100... lots of wasted volume.

If an updated .38 S&W sized cartridge were stuffed with a healthier load of smokeless, they could lop off 3/8'' of the .38 Spl's cylinder length and make it a smaller, more potent package... but that ain't gonna happen.

What I'd like to see is someone come up with a stainless DAO snubbie humpback shooting a cartridge of .45 GAP ballistics, utilizing a roll/collet crimp and cannelure bullets, loaded into moon clips.


''
There are some benefits to running .45 GAP in a revolver. The first benefit is that the Glock Automatic Pistol (GAP) round has a shorter overall length(.138") than the .45 AUTO round. Generally speaking, when loading from moonclips, shorter=better. The second benefit I had explained to me was the most interesting; .45 GAP uses small pistol primers instead of the large pistol primers employed by the ACP round. This has two positives: 1) you can actually find small pistol primers, 2) small pistol primers don’t require as forceful a hammer strike for reliable ignition, which means you can get an even lower trigger pull set up on the gun.''

main-qimg-851140b69ff6b916996e796867b82ddd-c.jpg


 

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The Achilles tendon of the .357 Mag, is that it's an 84 year old spin off of the 120 year old .38 Special, a cartridge that took birth in the black powder era. With the better performing powders, materials and ammunition components of today, why not come up with an updated, more efficient cartridge instead?

I don't like using 9 mm Luger ammo in revolvers. It belongs in the bottom feeder genus of handguns.

This S&W New Departure shoots the .38 S&W, 2nd from bottom. Loaded with a 158gr. LRFN, 2.2grs. W231. Pictured below it is a 9 mm Luger dummy round. Above is a .357 Mag and .38 Spl., both sporting 158 gr. HP's. The .38 Spl. holds 3.3 grs. of N-100, yet this same .38 brass will accept 19 grs. of N-100... lots of wasted volume.

If an updated .38 S&W sized cartridge were stuffed with a healthier load of smokeless, they could lop off 3/8'' of the .38 Spl's cylinder length and make it a smaller, more potent package... but that ain't gonna happen.

What I'd like to see is someone come up with a stainless DAO snubbie humpback shooting a cartridge of .45 GAP ballistics, utilizing a roll/collet crimp and cannelure bullets, loaded into moon clips.


''
There are some benefits to running .45 GAP in a revolver. The first benefit is that the Glock Automatic Pistol (GAP) round has a shorter overall length(.138") than the .45 AUTO round. Generally speaking, when loading from moonclips, shorter=better. The second benefit I had explained to me was the most interesting; .45 GAP uses small pistol primers instead of the large pistol primers employed by the ACP round. This has two positives: 1) you can actually find small pistol primers, 2) small pistol primers don’t require as forceful a hammer strike for reliable ignition, which means you can get an even lower trigger pull set up on the gun.''

View attachment 426747



The whole point of the .357 magnum is 1/10" longer, it will not seat in a .38 special OR a .38 S&W. A hot magnum like I carry would turn that old top break into a frag grenade if a .38S&W loaded to .357 pressures ever found its way into that gun. I see nothing wrong with the excess case capacity of the .38, myself. If it bothers you, just shoot .38 S&W in your .38 Special. :D
 
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The Achilles tendon of the .357 Mag, is that it's an 84 year old spin off of the 120 year old .38 Special, a cartridge that took birth in the black powder era. With the better performing powders, materials and ammunition components of today, why not come up with an updated, more efficient cartridge instead?

I don't like using 9 mm Luger ammo in revolvers. It belongs in the bottom feeder genus of handguns.

This S&W New Departure shoots the .38 S&W, 2nd from bottom. Loaded with a 158gr. LRFN, 2.2grs. W231. Pictured below it is a 9 mm Luger dummy round. Above is a .357 Mag and .38 Spl., both sporting 158 gr. HP's. The .38 Spl. holds 3.3 grs. of N-100, yet this same .38 brass will accept 19 grs. of N-100... lots of wasted volume.

If an updated .38 S&W sized cartridge were stuffed with a healthier load of smokeless, they could lop off 3/8'' of the .38 Spl's cylinder length and make it a smaller, more potent package... but that ain't gonna happen.

What I'd like to see is someone come up with a stainless DAO snubbie humpback shooting a cartridge of .45 GAP ballistics, utilizing a roll/collet crimp and cannelure bullets, loaded into moon clips.


''
There are some benefits to running .45 GAP in a revolver. The first benefit is that the Glock Automatic Pistol (GAP) round has a shorter overall length(.138") than the .45 AUTO round. Generally speaking, when loading from moonclips, shorter=better. The second benefit I had explained to me was the most interesting; .45 GAP uses small pistol primers instead of the large pistol primers employed by the ACP round. This has two positives: 1) you can actually find small pistol primers, 2) small pistol primers don’t require as forceful a hammer strike for reliable ignition, which means you can get an even lower trigger pull set up on the gun.''

View attachment 426747



The whole point of the .357 magnum is 1/10" longer, it will not seat in a .38 special OR a .38 S&W. A hot magnum like I carry would turn that old top break into a frag grenade if a .38S&W loaded to .357 pressures ever found its way into that gun. I see nothing wrong with the excess case capacity of the .38, myself. If it bothers you, just shoot .38 S&W in your .38 Special. :D

I'll argue the point on SPP and light hammer strikes, too. SPPs have had problems in a .357 Rossi I owned with light hammer strikes. I just quit using CCI magnum primers and went with Winchester SPP and the problem was solved.

.45 GAP is all, but dead, going if not gone the way of .41 Action Express.
 
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The whole point is that there could/should be an evolution in snubbie ammo. Glock's .45 GAP had dismal success mostly because of this sort of thing happening all too often.
GLOCK37_g3.jpg

Nonetheless, a modified .45 GAP round could really shine in a snub nosed revolver.
 
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Well, all's I can say is, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. :D

Looks like Glock has too much gap in the feed ramp area. That's bad. :D
 
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Introducing smokeless powder into a black powder cartridge created a host of things to be improved upon. With a large air volume introduced in a given cartridge, smokeless powders exhibit positional sensitivity within the cartridge. If you eliminate the air space by cutting down OAL to a shorter round, the entire gun can be made more compact and lightened, spent brass would be easier to eject... things many folks like in a snubbie.

http://blog.westernpowders.com/2015/08/powder-position-and-pressure/


All I want in a snubbie is something looking like this, made of shiny stainless, with a buttery smooth DAO trigger, and a ported barrel beefy enough to shoot .45 GAP or .460 Roland out of. A Tamer/laser mono grip would be nice also.

att001473.jpg

 
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