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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
ok so i was visiting yesterday and my cousin told me how they got beat up about 3 weeks ago, they're 13 & 14.

mind you this maybe somewhat exaggerated, as people often do with stories but i'll lay it out there the way i was told, there are some foggy parts.


day1: my 13 yo cousin (well call him mark) was (as he claims) minding his own business, a 12 yo started calling him names.. they got into a fight (unsure who thru the first punch) the 12yo went home.. and mark went about his business..

day2: mark and two girls from the neighborhood was headed to a basketball court when (and i can't believe there was this many) he said 20-30 guys ranging from their age to 19,20 and 21 walked up and ask him who had hit the 12yo, mark admitted they had gotten into a fight.. at that point he says the whole group attacked him and the 2 girls even though they had nothing to do with it.

about that time other 14yo cousin (we'll call him jeff) was walking down the street and seen what was going on, he instinctively ran to protect his brother and screamed to get off him.. he never made it to him, someone came from the side and started beating on him, he did'nt see who..

finally a neighbor seen what was going on, called the police and called their mother.
apparently they had beaten mark so bad he had lost consciousness, the mother of the 12yo is apparently the one who organized the attack and was heard shouting kick him again.

by the time their mother had gotten down to where the fight had taken place a police wagon was coming down the road, they attempted to flag them down, they stooped, and then turned around and left.

finally a cruiser showed up, 1cop, the group of attackers fled.

the police officer said he could'nt do anything since they did not know the names, addresses or plate numbers of the attackers, and that they could not go over to the 12yo's home and start ID'ing people and what not.

the injuries was enough to require a ambulance and a hospital visit.
mark had a concussion, damaged muscle around his rib (not sure exact injury), lots of brushes, cuts, and black eyes.
jeff was a little more lucky they only beat him enough to keep him from doing anything so he only ended up with black eyes and such, the usual injuries.

the girls suffered injuries too, however i do not know the extent.

their mother filed a compliant against the officer and talked to a detective, he informed her that the attack was ok cause it was retaliatory from the previous days attack on the 12yo, i can't believe a detective would say such a thing but she insists that what he said.

she went to the prosecutor the next day along with the other two girls parents , but the prosecutor claims they can't do anything since they wont/cant investigate unless they have names, addresses, or plate numbers they wont do anything.

on top of that the 12yo's mother who is reportedly the organizer of the attack has been driving by their house and has followed them a few times.

i was also told she has a open case for assault on a woman outside her house, but little did she know there was a video camera outside the womans house that caught the attack, about 4 months ago.

i hate dealing with stories 2nd or 3rd hand.. but regardless of the fine details they was definitely severely beaten so their injuries despite what might be exaggerated or missing from the story are true.

i could'nt help but think when hearing this story.. 20 - 30 people?
what would i have done with that many angry people? it's a scary thought because it's doubtful i could out run them all and i could'nt just "hope" my cousins could keep up, i wouldn't have much faith in my gun with that many people.. not to mention even if you drew to hold them at bay while you left who's to say they would not charge? or a few have guns of their own? how do you assess the threat level of that large a group?

if all of them had charged what would you do? just start firing on the closest ones as they run towards you?

could you imagine that? if you have to shoot 5 or 6 people? omg it would'nt matter if you was justified or not the media would have a frenzy with it, and then there is the your word against theirs.. how in the world would you ever get anyone to believe you that 20-30 people say you was the aggressor?

i imagine this would be a lot like a cop trying to contain a riot all by them selves.

what are your thoughts on this? what would you do assuming it went down exactly how the story goes?
and what should they do about the law which if the story is the actual factual seems to be incompetent.
 

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joe sixpack said:
what are your thoughts on this? what would you do assuming it went down exactly how the story goes?
and what should they do about the law which if the story is the actual factual seems to be incompetent.
I would get a good lawyer and go from there.
 

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paulrabe78 said:
I would get a good lawyer and go from there.
I agree whole heartedly. If they go after the "mom" civilly as opposed to criminally not only is the threshold of proof lower, but they can get her where it hurts...the bank account.
 

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I'm sorry that your cousin's and their friends got hurt. I hope the perps get punished.
 

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I would take a shot in the air or at the ground. The noise is bound to alert some future witnesses or passing police. If any of the people in the mob have any sense they'll realize after that that you might take a shot at anyone of them should they rush. Sounds to me like your cousins need to lay low for a while.
 

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Sorry to hear that your cousin got hurt Joe, I hope he's okay.

Even with the incredulities (which you mentioned) in the story, it does sound as if your cousin got jumped by more than one person, which is just an example of why restrictive gun laws make no sense. Those with intent to do harm will always attempt to use overwhelming force. If guns are denied them, they will turn to other weapons or numbers if thats what they have available. While those not seaking to do harm to others are restricted by what they can comfortably and legally have on thier person.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Gray_Wolf said:
Did your cousins or their mom tell the name/address of the 12y/o and his mother to the police? If so why don't they talk to them?
i think she said that she did know the womans name, and she definitely knows where they live, the single cop that responded told her they had constitutional rights and that he couldn't just go over there and start ID'ing every one.

she said she would sign a affidavit but he still refused, that is why she got his badge number and name and filed a compliant against him.

a detective called her to talk about the compliant and he is the one who said that the attack was ok cause it was retaliatory, which is totally wrong thats exactly why we have the law, you can't do revenge..

if they thought the situation warranted it they should have called the law that first day instead of jumping them the next, really when i was a kid and we got in little fights the parents would go talk it out..

they had no idea anyone was looking to jump them the next day until the group approached them.
 

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joe sixpack said:
a detective called her to talk about the compliant and he is the one who said that the attack was ok cause it was retaliatory, which is totally wrong thats exactly why we have the law, you can't do revenge..
Thus the anti-vigilante laws that came about so the law could be enforced by law-enforcement officials. With what was said by the cops, if you do something to me that I don't like, then I have the right to get a posse up and do whatever we want as long as it is "in retaaliation". Nah I don't think so, or there would be people hanging in the trees by the dozens daily.
 

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I'd find an attorney who feels the case has merit and will pursue it as a civil matter. If he feels a criminal conviction will bolster the civil case (get more $$$), he will do what he can to press the authorities to pursue the criminal aspect of the case.

I wish your cousins a speedy recovery.
 

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day1: my 13 yo cousin (well call him mark) was (as he claims) minding his own business, a 12 yo started calling him names.. they got into a fight (unsure who thru the first punch) the 12yo went home.. and mark went about his business..
i think its part of growing up...getting into fights. like you said your cousin stated he was "minding his own business", even if he was calling names back it doesnt matter, they threw down and it sounds like your cousin got the best of him. thats why he got jumped. the thing that really sucks is you cant just go toe to toe and let it end there. the best thing is for your cousin to lay low for a while. if he trys to get back it could get worse. and TRUST me i would love to see some revenge, but he may just have to let it go. i would not think the cops will end up doing much over a fight, even though there we many kids involved...sucks to say that but its been my experience when it comes to fights. hope your cousing gets over it all ok. ( is it illegal for a minor to carry pepper spray?)
 

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When kids fight and left to deal with the aftermath by themselves they often become best friends, when older brothers and "the family" gets involved in fighting the kids battle it often escalates just as you stated.

In New York State the situation you described would NOT ever justify a use of deadly force as a response or even drawing your weapon to control the scene. Based on the scene as you described it, in this state you would be arrested for drawing/ firing your weapon and may lose your CCW permit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
DARKSIDE351 said:
i think its part of growing up...getting into fights. like you said your cousin stated he was "minding his own business", even if he was calling names back it doesnt matter, they threw down and it sounds like your cousin got the best of him. thats why he got jumped. the thing that really sucks is you cant just go toe to toe and let it end there. the best thing is for your cousin to lay low for a while. if he trys to get back it could get worse. and TRUST me i would love to see some revenge, but he may just have to let it go. i would not think the cops will end up doing much over a fight, even though there we many kids involved...sucks to say that but its been my experience when it comes to fights. hope your cousing gets over it all ok. ( is it illegal for a minor to carry pepper spray?)
the thing is if the story is true this is'nt just kids the mother was the one who organized the friends and family members to jump them, some of the people was over 18, legally they are adults assaulting minors.

i would imagine there is some sort of other law broken here a group that size i would imagine could qualify for a gang.

when someone is injured enough that they have to goto the hospital with a concussion.. thats a serious head injury. i think the situation has gone way further then simply 2 kids fighting.

i use to get in fights as a kid, no one ever got injured like that, but then again you did'nt get a mob of people to beat on someone either.

Rabid_Dog said:
When kids fight and left to deal with the aftermath by themselves they often become best friends, when older brothers and "the family" gets involved in fighting the kids battle it often escalates just as you stated.

In New York State the situation you described would NOT ever justify a use of deadly force as a response or even drawing your weapon to control the scene. Based on the scene as you described it, in this state you would be arrested for drawing/ firing your weapon and may lose your CCW permit.
im glad i dont live in NY, heck you can't hardly get a permit anyway there can you?

eh, anyway in ohio you dont have to be on your death bed to use force, you only have to believe grave bodily harm is about to befall you, and well 20-30 people, heck it would'nt even take that many, if 2 or more people came at me that would be in my mind serious bodly harm.

if i was with them it's not my license i'd be worried about.. it would be the ineffectiveness of my gun, even if i have perfect shot placement i could not stop that large a group.. more so even if i drew only as a warning how do you keep your eyes on that large a group? trust me the last thing im gonna do is take a beat down by a group that large while im carrying once you're on the ground taking my gun would'nt be all that much trouble.. and once they get your gun then you're really in deep.
 

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I do agree with the other posts to take it to a lawyer as a civil matter. Take lots of photos of the victims and the injuries (look in a lot of pain in the pictures, no smiling) and take all medical records and drag their butts into court. Maybe they'll think twice next time.

As to getting a permit in NY, yeah it's very hard in some areas and impossible in others. I got lucky and have a lifetime unrestricted CCW permit (except NYC). If it gets any worse where the lawmakers threaten to take my CCW away I'm moving.
 

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Rabid_Dog said:
In New York State the situation you described would NOT ever justify a use of deadly force as a response or even drawing your weapon to control the scene. Based on the scene as you described it, in this state you would be arrested for drawing/ firing your weapon and may lose your CCW permit.
Then I guess I would be getting arrested and loosing my license then. All it takes is 1 person to beat someone to death. I think a mob of people warrants drawing your weapon to defend yourself.
 

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Rabid_Dog said:
I do agree with the other posts to take it to a lawyer as a civil matter. Take lots of photos of the victims and the injuries (look in a lot of pain in the pictures, no smiling) and take all medical records and drag their butts into court. Maybe they'll think twice next time.
A fight between 2 kids caused a mob to retaliate and beat up one of the kids and 2 little girls. Imagine what that same group of people is going to do when they get served with papers to show up in court? Do this, sit your cousins down tell em they got an a**woopin and thats apart of life and everyone should let it go. You guys start gettin attorneys involved in this and soon your gonna have to figure out a way to sell your house and move because the harassment from these people is gonna get bad.
 

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jgos929 said:
Then I guess I would be getting arrested and loosing my license then. All it takes is 1 person to beat someone to death. I think a mob of people warrants drawing your weapon to defend yourself.
A mob of people. it sounds like they were all unarmed and I'm sure some of those people were minors. From the description not one person was carrying a baseball bat, golf club, knife, etc. My attitude is that if you would suggest to the crowd you would use deadly force by drawing your firearm, you must be prepared to use deadly force without hesitation. So the situation has to warrant deadly force when the weapon is drawn. Would I kill someone in that crowd as they were approaching me? No. So I can't use the firearm to menace them unless I am prepared to shoot. I also won't go to jail for someone else's mistakes.

If they come to your house to play games after the papers are served, good for them. I would leave my door unlocked. Once anyone crosses my threshold and steps into my house with bad intentions they are fair game! The rules have changed.

Call the cops, go inside, grab the 12 gauge, hope they follow me in. If not it'll support your case in court that they are menacing you.
 

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Just get OJ's lawyers, you'd get off free.... and probably get a 300K job a year to boot!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
couple things i wanna clear up..

it was actually both my cousins and the two girls that was attacked, remember my cousin "jeff" stumbled on the fight as they was beating "mark" on the ground, he tried to go protect his brother but was blind sighted and beaten to the ground before he could make it to him..

also wanna clear up they was not friends with this 12yo before this.. they wont be afterwords, my understand is they did not know the kid before the incident on the first day.

i was also told the 12yo's mother has been seen going by their house several times, as well as has followed them to various places.. not like they seen here at a corner store, gas station, or wally world.. but going ot other relatives houses she said they have been followed by her.

i can not imagine any pleasant reason why they would now be stalking my cousins and their mother.

and i disagree rabid, a ground of angry people.. no i would'nt draw unless one came at me, i dont care if they are unarmed or not a group that size could kill you no problem, i dont know if nypd has been in a riots but im willing ot bet he'd agree with me even with cops in riot gear and guns a mob of unarmed people that is pissed is very dangerous.
 
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