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which would yoou perfer, light and fast or heavy and slower??

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Discussion Starter #1
i personally like a heavier grain, my thinking is this will do more damage to the entend target.
 

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I guess I'm old fashioned. I prefer big ol' fat and slow.
 

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Just like I can do more damage, when I a big fat and slow!! :rolleyes:

Naw, actually depends on the gun I am using. :???: But, it does seem that a 250gr 45, compared to a 158 gr 357 the difference would be totally different. I have not tried the 45 less than 200 gr, and all my 38/357 are 158gr. I know there is a difference, but if I am shooting at the zombies will I really care.
 

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Actually didn't vote. There are good arguments for both at times.

Then there are the middle ground and middle bullet weights that work.

Massad Ayoob and Chuck Karwan have boiled all the arguments down in Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery. All the aspects were covered. Might be wise to get a copy(legally that is :) ) anyway you can and read the chapters that deal with this.

There was a middle ground where in most calibers both crowds could agree on things. Won't go into all that here.

The various loads all do some things well. They cannot however do all things well. Too many variables to the calibers,cartridges,and unpredictable enviroment of gun fights to be able to come down on one side or the other completely.

There's also the fact that many shooting scenarios the military and LEOs face are not necessarily ones that civilians will or can face themselves.

Case by case basis folks and no one general load can cover everything.
Would be nice if we could.

http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=1926.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=1603.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=4920.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=6304.msg58773#msg58773
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=1976.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=2828.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=5569.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=5482.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=3451.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=2540.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=3612.msg27711#msg27711
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=4920.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=2822.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=186.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=90.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=775.0

This is a compilation of some of the data that this discussion is all about.
Could have brought more, but , Sheeesh, it's getting out of hand. ;) :) :D
 

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Qwiks draw
Would you have believed when you started here, that you would have so much data that applied to a particular subject. Your lists of reading material just keep growing and growing.

But it keeps us on our toes, just making sure we did not miss something on our favorite subject.
 

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Robby. If the other half of the same kind of data saying the same things were brought out,Good God, what mess there would be.

Try doing the searches at places like TFL or THR forums. Now there's life time employment.
 

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I'm from the heavy and fast school myself. :p

Seriously, I'm fine with either as long as they're adequate for the intended application.
 

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Like Qwiks says above, there are good arguments for both sides. The hyper-expanding hollowpoints we have today make the 9mm a very attractive option, whereas it wasn't so good in the late 80's or early 90's. The 45acp is time tested, tried and true - been through no less than 4 major wars and stopped no telling how many men.

I think the 40 cal was a nice 'alternative' load design - it's a great compromise and it's developed a proven street record with many PD's across the country.

I personally have a 24/7 45acp and a PT145 Mil Pro, so I think you can see where I sit on this one.
 

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Depends on the job. Heavy in caliber is good for penetration, superior sectional density, better penetration. But, a cast 180 in .357 magnum, while great for hunting hogs or stopping a black bear, is too much, overpenatrative for self defense. In .45ACP for self defense, I like the 200 grain JHP, enough velocity to get expansion and plenty of penetration. I think 200 grains is the sweet spot. There is no decent .45ACP for hunting or defense against animals hiking. I like the 165s in theory in .40, but haven't fired any .40. But, 180 seems to me is a bit much for optimum velocity. You can get more umph out of a lighter bullet in .40. I carry 115 +P JHP in 9mm for defense. 124 is fine, but 147 is too much weight for the caliber. It expands better at the higher velocities of the 115 grain bullet and has plenty of penetration in the caliber. I'd consider a 147 soft nose if I had to press this anemic caliber into use against a hog or something for the penetration. I'd rather go to a magnum revolver, though.

So, it just sorta depends, caliber and use.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Has anyone heard of hydrostatic shock, from what i have read it is, when a projectile hits a body it causes ripples that destroy tissues, research has shown that this does damages to soft tissues, so i equate this a bigger rock makes bigger ripples on water

any doctors on the board???
 

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The only flaw with that is that the 357 magnum is and has been the top manstopper, period. The top load is the Federal/Remington/Winchester 125 grain semi-jacketed hollowpoint. This is a 96-97 percent one-shot stopper according to Evan Marshall, as well as Dr. Fackler. The diameter of the 357 is, of course, the same as the 38 special, it's just being pushed much faster - close to 1300 - 1400 fps in this case. So it would seem that the feet-per-second does have something to do with the stopping power....I have read stories about the shock generated by getting hit with the top 357 mag load being enough to stop the gunfight, all by itself........
 

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NativeTexan said:
Depends on the job. Heavy in caliber is good for penetration, superior sectional density, better penetration. But, a cast 180 in .357 magnum, while great for hunting hogs or stopping a black bear, is too much, overpenatrative for self defense. In .45ACP for self defense, I like the 200 grain JHP, enough velocity to get expansion and plenty of penetration. I think 200 grains is the sweet spot. There is no decent .45ACP for hunting or defense against animals hiking. I like the 165s in theory in .40, but haven't fired any .40. But, 180 seems to me is a bit much for optimum velocity. You can get more umph out of a lighter bullet in .40. ...
On the subject of wild beasties, what load would you recommend for defense against animals on the trail? For example, I have a .357, so maybe 180gr FMJ or JHP? I've come across small black bears and though they almost always shy away from people--and I don't want to shoot a bear if I can avoid it--this is insurance. Or I might have to put down a wounded deer.

I'm also curious about .357 SIG--do you think it would be effective against medium-sized animals?

For urban/suburban carry, I feel very secure with my sweet little .40s!
 

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I've heard of whitetails being taken with a 357, as well as javelina and other types of animals. I don't think I'd have the balls to shoot a bear with a 357 unless he was phone-booth close and I really didn't have any choice. The 357 is great for 2 legged predators, but I think all it would do to a bear of any kind is simply piss it off, unless you got real lucky.

I don't have any experience with hunting with an rimless ammo - 357 Sig, 45 acp, etc. but I'm not sure that would be optimal. Seems like those calibers are designed specifically for combat defense, not taking down game.
 

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Indrid Cold said:
On the subject of wild beasties, what load would you recommend for defense against animals on the trail? For example, I have a .357, so maybe 180gr FMJ or JHP? I've come across small black bears and though they almost always shy away from people--and I don't want to shoot a bear if I can avoid it--this is insurance. Or I might have to put down a wounded deer.

I'm also curious about .357 SIG--do you think it would be effective against medium-sized animals?

For urban/suburban carry, I feel very secure with my sweet little .40s!
Any .357 magnum with a good 158 hard cast SWC will work. The Buffalo Bore 180 hard cast is probably the ultimate in factory loads. I handload a similar 180 Hornady XTP, but normally just carry my hard cast, gas checked 158s that are pushing about 600 ft lbs out of a 4" barrel, plenty for any black bear where I have hiked in the past, west Texas and New Mexico. I've even heard recommendations that the .357 was perhaps better than bigger magnums on Alaska's big bears because even the .44 or .454 is going to need to hit the CNS/head and the .357 is more shootable in such a situation and more able to get off a second shot in a bear charge. Really sorta makes sense when you think about it. Even a .460 will need precise placement and will likely not stop a 1200 lb brown bear immediately. A shot to the head with a good .357 load will.
 

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For the skinny on "hydrostatic shock", not really a proper term, it's a "pressure wave" according to Dr. Michael Courtney, a research physicist, read his paper here.... http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org/lotor.pdf

The pressure wave only BEGINS to become a factor in handguns at about the 500 ft lbs level according to what the good Doctor has written and significant affects can be seen at 1000 ft lbs and over. It's not an instant transition, though, but more of a linear relationship. But, read his paper for the real expert explanations. He has been very eye opening to me on the subject. This is perhaps the BEST, most definitive paper I've seen yet on the subject and explains a lot as to how I can shoot a deer in the lungs with a bullet producing a little over 1000 ft lbs on impact and see if fold like a sack of potatoes. I've seen it with my own eyes from a .30-30 Contender pistol. I've seen lung tissue virtually VAPORIZED by a 7mm Remington Magnum. At those energy levels, well, it's pretty danged impressive what a belted magnum can do to a deer sized animal and deer are tougher than humans. I would NOT wanna be on the receiving end of that 7 mag, put it that way.

Again, you have to start pushing hot .44 magnum levels to really see massive energy transfer via pressure wave effects. A .357 out of a 2" barrel is still killing, pretty much, with the crush cavity of tissue, though it STILL has effects of a small pressure wave, just not enough to make much difference.

I'm trying to quote Dr. Courtney accurately from recollections of net conversations with him. Read that study, though, very enlightening. I've saved that PDF on hard disc.

There really is more to terminal ballistics than how big the bullet is, guess that's the lesson. But, at most handgun energy levels, you just can't count on energy transfer except in as much as it causes bullet expansion which causes tissue disruption. In the .357 Magnum, that expansion and disruption is quite significant from what I've seen shooting hogs. It is a far superior hunting caliber to your run of the mill auto cartridges like the .45ACP even if Jeff Cooper thought he could kill elephants with the cartridge. That's why I often carry a .357 magnum in preference to my .45ACP. The .45 will get the job done, though, that's for sure. After all, a +P .45 pushes over 500 ft lbs, though I normally load mine with a non +P 200 grain hollowpoint and am secure in my believe that it is more'n enough for self defense.
 

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I'll summarize a bit. This subject is much argued over to the point of creating locked threads on the major gun boards. But, essentially what I've learned from Dr. Courtney is BOTH camps are right. At magnum revolver levels, energy really does matter. I've seen this in game from 4" to 20" barrels in .357 Magnum. However, in the energy ranges of most defensive handguns, 200-400 ft lbs, there is not sufficient pressure wave, or "energy transfer" if you will, to cause much of the incapacitation. It's more crush cavity than pressure wave affects and, therefore, you must have a s large a wound channel as possible while getting full penetration.

But rest assured, there is such a thing as a "one shot stop" from energy transfer from 180 grain .44 magnums in the 1200 ft lbs range or even from 4" .357s pushing over 500 ft lbs.

Me, for concealment reasons, I mostly carry a 9mm pocket gun pushing 410 ft lbs at the muzzle. Well placed, that's plenty of punch and I can easily tote this thing all day long.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
thanks nativetexan for the info on hydrostatic shock, i found the paper informatave

WOW! the .308 vmax actually killed the subjct with out making a wound channel, very interesting, would not want to be shot with one of these
 

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I wish I'd had a digital camera when I shot this one doe with a 7 mag, though the pictures would have been quite gory. The thing just had no lungs left and it destroyed both shoulders on the thing, blew the off side shoulder off her and was hanging by a few tendons and pieces of skin. It was a combination of over 3000 fps with a very rapidly expanding 150 grain hunting bullet. I shot a big buck that weekend, too, behind the shoulder quartering away at about 200 yards with much less tissue damage. He just folded up dead before he hit the ground. That thing takes no prisoners.
 
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