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Discussion Starter #1
I was just looking looking at the FAQ's section at the sight picture for Heinie sights. I have to totally disagree with the diagrams. http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=835.0 First the picture on the right shows the top of the front sight centered on the bullseye. The diagram says this is a six o'clock hold when in fact it is dead on. The bullet is going to impact at the point of aim. With a a six o'clock sight picture the top of the front sight would be aiming at the bottom of the bullseye and the the impact would be the center of the bullseye. With the diagram on the left the front sight is aiming above the bullseye and if the the impact is the center of the bullseye the gun is shooting low not dead on. With that diagram for dead on you wouldn't be able to see a 2 or 3 inch bullseye
from 25yards because it would be hidden behind the front sight. You have to remember the dots are there for reference so everything lines up but the point of aim is the top of the front sight. If you would like to see a good illustration go to this link for XD pistols then click on download manual. Go to page 16 and it illustrates dead on (point of aim)and six o'clock hold. http://www.springfield-armory.com/xd.php Mark
 

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Not the top of the site that is dead on it's the site dot that you use on these sites, look at the left picture it is dead on. I believe that is why so many PT owners say they shoot low.
 

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That really doesn't make much sense to me because without using the top edge of the front sight you could be shooting high or low by just using the upper dot. The dots are to keep you centered easily but not to cover the target. I think the reason people complain that there guns shoots low might be that the gun shoots low. I have 3dot sights, plain black target, fiber optic and single front dot handgun sights plus I have rifles too. The only dots I have that covers the target are electronic red dots but they are made to do that. But to hide the target behind the front sight post especially on the taurus which is very wide makes for a very poor sight picture, not precise at all. This would be as logical as to cover the target with the center dot on three dot sights. I see you also have a 44mag tracker. Do you adjust you sights so the point of impact is behind the front sight or the top edge of the sight? Here's another link for point of aim and 6 o'clock sighting. http://www.targetshooting.ca/docs/pistol_sighting.pdf and another http://www.bobtuley.com/sight_picture.htm And lastly if taurus had different height sights available which they don't, people could have their sights set up anyway they want and this wouldn't be a issue. Mark
 

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First of all the dead on is correct as is. The target is supposed to be fuzzy and the sights clear just like the pictures show. Or should. If you sight properly then the bullets will impact where they are supposed to without seeing the tiny bullseye. That's the way it works and always has.
If a shooter does what is shown in the pictures properly then they will hit properly using either type of shooting.

For some 6 o'clock works well, but this is not normally technique used for a defense handgun. Expecting very tiny little groups to be in a target with pistols and revolvers that are not target grade is ludicrous at best.
Dead on is normally taught for defense weapons.

One does shoot the best they can, but expecting one ragged hole or target quality is again not consistent with reality. Guns that are target grade normally have ammo and firearms designed for more consistant hitting the same spot in very tight little groups. There are exceptions.

Engineering is more precise ballisitically for the ammo and the fit and function of the target pieces used to do this with. Tolerances are tight all across the board.The amount of research and developement that goes into target grade guns is a lot more effort than what goes into defense pistols or revolvers.

For defense accuracy is needed as well. However the precision with which shots can be placed is not on par realistically with target grade guns. Otherwise target grade guns are all one could or would buy. Expense would put this out of a majority of civilians reach.

Not under adrenaline dump,extreme stress and duress, fine motor skill loss, heart pounding, fight or flight situations is one going to realistically calmly shoot the human target/s as if on picnic and out for relaxation.

Special units use target grade pistols and revolvers because of the need to be more precise with thier shots than civilians. They are trained to a high degree most civilians will never match or be able to for expense or reasons of time. The specail unit operators learn to do this under stress, shoot amounts of ammo at prodigious rates, train incessantly,and have budgets to allow for this. Civilians normally don't have access to this sort of thing.

http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=2418.0

The above link deals with some of the vagaries that go into shooting defense sidearms.

Expense,harsh operating conditions, harsh enviroments, reliable fit and function,as well as humans being bigger targets, mean that gun makers have to compromise and reach a level of ability for the gun to deliver what is normally accepted "combat accuracy" at reasonable combat ranges for sidearms. Gun makers have done that.


POI will very if a 6 o'clock hold is used vs. a dead on sight picture.Depends on how you zero the gun or shoot it as well.
Target shooters are well served by the 6 o'clock hold. Defense shooters are not.
Most shooting instructors or schools use the dead on for defense teaching. Not written in stone.

There are many factors and vagaries that have been gone over again and again where shooters were having troubles.

Could be the culmination of a number of things and we staff and members are not there to see each person on a case by case basis shoot. Nor the conditions, nor do we see the stance ,grip,or trigger follow through. wish we could, but realsitcally can't.

So we advise the best we can covering practically ALL the factors we can.Whether operator error or inexperience,real gun troubles, intangibles we cannot know about, or a combination of any of the above described factors,we can only surmise what is going on.

Even bullet weight, kind of ammo,brand of ammo, or even what batch are factors that come into play here.

Then there is the fact the fixed sighted guns,especially compact or sub-compacts, are hard to regulate the sight on. Doesn't matter what brand,make ,or model by any company, this is true for all of them. Many of the factors in the link come into play here.So do others too numerous to mention.

With all that said, the companies do the best they can with what they have.

Fixed sighted guns are going to shoot high,low,left right. Even the sights on alike samples will not have the same POI. These are massed produced non-target guns at price rates the regular buying public can afford. Some more expensive than others. High price is not and indicator of quality. Many like to think so but I digress.
Ever since firearms were invented fixed sights rarely hit perfectly to point of aim. Too many factors and vagaries enter in.

If one has a fixed sighted gun one has to take the time to experiment to find the best combo of ammo for fit,function,reliability, and for accuracy. POI does figure in, but is not the most important factor. Other wise hardball or target ammo of any shape would do.

One gets to the nearest POI that is as close to dead center as possible, but for many reasons already stated that may not be realistic. One will have to learn where to put the sights for dead center hits and then learn to live with that.

Experimenting with the factors described above takes time,dedication and experience. Each trip to the range need to have a goal other than just putting ammo downrange or shooting tight groups. There are a lot of factors in defense shooting that need to be addressed and kept up with to be proficient.

All this is covered somehwere within the forums here and gets discussed time and time again.

So yes, it is possible the guns shoot low.It is also operator usage and the many factors in HOW they go about shooting that come into play. This as well as the factors of the gun,ammo,and enviroment. Even humidity,cold, and heat play into this.

There are a plethora of new shooters here at this forum. New even to the type of guns or gun they shoot. Have to learn the vagaries and performance abilities of gun ammo, and the person. This holds true for even those who shoot regularly and have experience with most or all types of firearms. Even the old vet shooters have things to learn and find out. We never stop learning nor gaining experience.

So coming in here and picking on the example pictures when there are so many factors seems silly to a degree. There may be better pictures and examples describing this. There might not be too.

Shooting low can be the gun... and it can be the shooter.. or the ammo, or other factors. Combinations of factors also as has been seen.

Same goes for shooting too high,low, or somewhere in between.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=2872.msg21251#msg21251

Drummin_man62 had the right idea for those of us who are having sight issues and it is the user for the most part. Even us so called shooting vets can have an off day or develop bad habits. Hard to unlearn, too. :D

There are a lot of things to consider.

Mentoring by another qualified individual who can use constructive criticism is a good way to help get to proficiency. Then staying at that level of proficiency is another thing. :)

Sights can be changed if need be and replaced by others. Then there are those of us who make due and make minor corrections with our fixed sights to hit the center.

Did this with revolvers and learned where,even at long range (100-200 yards) where to hold to get dead center hits with certain specimens of handgun. Not all, just a few.
This with fixed sights.

It is realistic to expect to hit the general target as well as we can. Perfection and total precision will not happen for the most part with combat handguns. Some can get to that level. Some combat handguns are that precise, but are the exception rather than the rule. They will not necessarily be the majority.

If you see the target clearly the sight very well may be too fuzzy for good work. Even if you can't see the tiny bullseye, the bullets will hit the mark.

This also depends on range and realistic targets for realistic work for that particular gun.

Members and staff try to provide adequate info and advice. I think they do that at a very competent level.
Figured this all needed to be said or covered.

There are exceptions to this. For example, there are some of us who have regular revolvers or pistols that shoot groups that are up there with target grade quality sidearms. Cherish those dearly if you have pistols or revolvers that can one hole for many shots it or shoot ragged little groups at medium to long range.
 

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So so true Quicks Draw seems I read this before, lol
Railroader yes I do shoot my Tracker the same way using the red insert. I guess maybe I just lucky but not a one of my Taurus's shoot low. Now my POI is lower on my .40's with lighter ammo that is why I chose to shoot 180gr. I have found out in my life all guns just like certian loads better, but that will start another argument won't it, lol.
As was said above the sites should be clear, target fuzzy, dots lined up across and centered POI covered.If you focus to make target clear you lose your sites, you may not think so but you do!That's it in a nutshell.
The one site you gave to read says same thing, "center hold is prefered for pistols, etc." The other talks about rifles that's a different matter.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Well anyway I shot my new 24/7 45acp. today. The bullet impacts dead even with top of the front sight at 15 yards from a rest. ;D. It was shooting left about 3 inches but that can be dealt with. So whatever we call the sight picture it was working. It ran like a top. Mark
 

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I'm glad your happy with it :D I love my 24/7 pro .40, even the Ms. likes it and will one day out shoot me. This is a gal that never shot before about a year ago. I am far from a pro and even though I'd not forgot the basics from years back I had to get back into shootin. I get better each time as we all do. Have fun, be safe and most of all ENJOY !!!! :yipee:
 

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Forgot to add a few things, but that was getting long in length.
The gun gurus are right in several aspects. Use the shooting position ,stance, or method that works for you. This includes where you put the sight on target.

Though, learning several, including shooting one handed,left and right handed, techniques and stances, and from various heights, are considered highly recommended.
If hunting this might not be as crucial as for self defense. Stilll valid for either situation.

Railroader,congrats are in order for doing fine shooting.

Sometimes we over think it or don't think enough. Better if one can concentrate, but letting it happen through doing the right things by clearing the mind and 'just do it'. Sounds kind of odd.
The subconscious can play tricks on us. Too much worry,too hard trying to do the right thing. Not enough concentration, too distracted. :D

One instructor here has reminded new shooters to do the proper things but that a shot should break by surprise.Let it happen naturally and follow through the same way for following shots.
Might be interesting to have a sub board for technique,stance, and the other variables of shooting.

All this has been discussed, in part at other boards, in many other threads and posts. Bits and pieces have been touched on in detail, but there isn't any overall guide.

There have been many threads dealing with sights, possible malfunctions,and other topics along this line.

In many techniques and methods are discussed. It would be hard if not near impossible to pull all the great suggestions and advice into one or two FAQs or something similar.

So we'll continue to have great discussions over a long period and in many threads.

And just to throw a happy monkeywrench inoto the works, gun companies proof their guns at varying ranges. Varies from the proverbial 7 yards to 25 yards for sight testing or zero by them.
Do they use a bench rest or not? Do they use a contrivance to hold the gun steady for accuracy testing? Or do they just shoot from the bench unsupported?

Bullet trajectory isn't a straight line. Bullets drop as soon as they come out of the barrrel due to gravity and we seem to see the bullet path described as a curve with rise and fall.

Give me a B,give me a B, give me a B,give me a B,and that adds up to....BBBBBBBBBBBBBB. :p :loco: There's a lot to absorb if the body and mind are willing. ;D

The NRA Firearms SourceBook is an excellent source for shooting info of many kinds.
Reloading manuals, and Cartridges of the World by Frank Barnes and edited by another author,(this is put out by Digest Books) are great sources of info on ballistics and explain all cartridges and how they behave.
 

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Holy Cow...took me 5 minutes to read that reply... Qwiks.. ;)
My brain went into overflow....."Gone Crazy-Back Soon"... :loco:
What a wealth of info..thanks

railroader ....
thank you for posting that...
because of that post,you brought alot of info to me,and i needed it..thanks again

I am glad that we can post dissagrements in here,and not get attacked...we always get good info at the end...thanks to all
 

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This is the first firearm I have owned with the 8 configuration and it is taking me awhile to catch on. I think I am going to the range tomorrow or Friday so I will be sure to practice the techniques mentioned above.
 

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The FAQ board has some good info on the Straight Eight sights. Might be good to check it out.

Getting the right grip, hand pressure and keeping it even all the way through the sighting and shot, proper stance, locked elbows,where and how the thumbs are placed( up, down,or straightout, all contribute to where the bullet will land. So does steady finger pressure, follow through for each shot, and other factors.
These and other mentioned factors all go into the proper techniques and methods to shoot well. Oh, yes. Breath control is a factor as well. Won't go into all that as this is getting long enough.

That's why the recommendation to have an accredited instructor or very knowledgeable affable person do the mentoring.Stops the bad habits that can form early on and makes one concentrate on good technique.

Good,solid constructive criticism and feedback help immensely. Can't overstate that fact.
 
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