Taurus Firearm Forum banner

1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,813 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I am looking around for a semi-auto 12 gauge shotgun, preferably gas operated. I already have a pair of Belgium made Browning Auto-5 shotguns, that were hand me downs, and they will be hand me downs to my sons. But I am looking for budget brand semi-auto that I can use for the field, or for skeet/trap/sporting clays.

One of the things I have noticed is that Turkey has pretty much sewn up the shotgun market. If you buy a low-mid budget shotgun, it is almost guaranteed to be built in Turkey, or made from Turkish parts. Some people made a distinction between Turkish makers, but I am seeing shared designs, shared quality improvements, and shared parts. For instance, one of the Turkish budget brands was having quality issues with their barrels, and then suddenly, they started using barrels made by another Turkish manufacturer. This makes me think that all of these Turkish builders are closely related. Their handful of brands appear to pretty much be the same, or at least very close. They all operate the latest ISO certified facilities, and if they are making military guns, they are all NATO certified, so for the most part, the quality appears to be there. They may be a little spotty on final inspection of the low budget lines, like Hatfield at Wally World, so I would advise a close inspection before you buy. But with shared designs they seem to have parts interchangeability between shotguns of the same design.

Speaking of design, in the semi-auto lines, they appear to be focused on just a few derived designs. The budget line autos will typically be based on an early Beretta design (not the current Benneli design that Beretta uses), while the higher priced lines, at the moment, are Win SX3 derived designs, such as the TriStar Viper G2, Pointer Phenoma, and the Armsan A612. I am hearing that a new design based on the Benneli "Inertia Driven" design is heading here, which would be a departure for Turkish autos that have up until now been gas operated. Also, the Turks standardized on the Berreta choke designs long ago, and the only chokes not Beretta design will be guns built for American brands that specify another choke design/standard.

There are a number of American brands that use Turkish built shotguns, such as Mossberg and Weatherly, and you can usually find the name of the Turkish builder somewhere, often on the barrel, or receiver. Some of those names will be ATA, Armsan, Huglu, Khan, Yildiz, and Kral, that I know about. But there are at least an equal number of brands names that are distributor related, or just a name they think better appeals to Americans, such as Pointer, Hatfield, TriStar.

Academy BTW has an exclusive agreement with Yildiz, and all Yildiz models will be sold through them, or distributed by them in the USA. But Yildiz follows the same designs as the other Turkish shotguns, whether single barrel, double barrel, O&U, Pump or Semi-auto. In most cases they appear to use slightly higher quality parts, especially wood, for a slightly higher price. On the plus side, if you ever have a problem with your Yildiz, you can take it back to Academy for repair.

Well, so much for background, I have had my eye on a TriStar Viper G2, which seems to be a better made version of the Win SX3 at about half or less the price of a Win SX3. But now the Pointer Phenoma has caught my eye and appears to be the same gun at half the price of the TriStar. The Pointer and TriStar are both made by Armsan. I know that TriStar customer service is provided by Briley, but that Briley is so backlogged, so I am wondering for how long that will be. I do not know who is providing CS for Pointer (distributed by Legacy Arms). I have tried to look at the Yildiz semi-auto up close, but I can never find them in stock at our local Academy. It was BTW a knowledgeable salesman at Academy that told me ATA has an inertia drive system semi-auto inbound that they are all excited about.

So my question is have any of you shot, or own, a Pointer Phenoma? What did you think about it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,813 Posts
Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
I will summarize a number of posts that were in another thread about my shotguns.

I went ahead and ordered the Pointer Phenoma from Kentucky Gun for $315 plus tax and FFL transfer fee.

Later that same week, I picked up a Wally World Hatfield SAS in 28 gauge for $206. I went over the gun pretty good as it was the display model and the only 28 gauge they had, it appears well made on the outside. Took over an hour for them to find the box which was a big deal because there are 3 screw in chokes and a light loads gas piston (maybe, but more on that later). It took them so long to find the box that the online form timed out. I just checked that the manual, extra chokes and gas piston were in the box. So when they bring the box, the online form timed out and they have to reenter the gun information, i.e., serial number. I saw the manager scan the bar code off the box, but did not think anything about it. I and the wife are in a hurry to finish this as Alabama had just kicked off.

So after the ball games are over, I pull out the shotgun and try to reassemble it, it was broke back down in the store to fit in the box. Well, nothing is going back together the way it should, so after going over the manual and some online videos, I finally get this thing put back together correctly. While reassembling it I realize that the extra part in the box does not go on a 28 gauge SAS and is not a gas piston. At this point I am thinking what the heck, so I pull the extra chokes and sure enough, they are not for a 28 gauge, but a for 20 gauge. I check the end of the box, and the serial number is not what is on the gun, and it clearly says 20 gauge. Then I look at my receipt and sure enough, it says I purchased a 20 gauge.

I call the store and inform them the gun on my receipt is not the gun I have. From my end, I think I have the leverage. They have logged a 20 gauge out of the FFL cage that is still in their cage, although it is missing a part, and I have a 28 gauge that they still have logged into their cage. So they have a missing shotgun according to the logs and one that was logged out as sold but still in the cage, not stuff that the feds like to see. Me, I just want those extra screw-in chokes for the 28 gauge. Looking online, I believe there has been a design update to the SAS line that does away with the need for a light load gas piston, and my 28 gauge has a relative low serial number under 1500 because the 28 gauge is new, so it will be the latest design.

Other than Wally World's mess, I like this little 28 gauge, it points nice, the fiber optic front sight lights up, the action cycles smoothly, the wood is all nicely fitted, and the trigger is light, although a bit creepy. Not a bad shotgun for $206, and certainly you won't find another 28 gauge this nice, at this price. I bought it with the idea that I could clean it up and easily get $100 over what I paid for it, if I decide not to keep it. As for now, I think I better start looking for a place to quail hunt.

Wally World called me back and they say they have it all figured out now. I will bring them back the box with the 20 gauge parts inside and they will give me the 28 gauge box with the 28 gauge parts inside. Meanwhile, I fired my 28 gauge SAS and I like it, everything works.

ROFLMAO, well, I took the box back to Wally World and, of course, they ran into problems. It seems that Wally World went from hard copy to online for both the federal forms, as well as the forms that control logging in and out of weapons, and sporting goods sales. So to make a long story short, after keeping me there for 2 hours, while the store managers conferred, they decided it was better to give me the other shotgun (the 20 gauge than went with the wrong box they gave me) than to try and correct the forms. Bottomline was that, given Wally World's strict no return policy on firearms (and ammo), there was no way to return that 20 gauge shotgun to the store online, it is not built into their software, therefore it was better for WW to just gift me the shotgun, and take the loss, rather than continue trying to figure out a way to change the paperwork, so to speak. Evidently BATFE was not the problem as they would have made the change, but WW's own internal software would not allow it.

Hey, I am not complaining, I got a free shotgun. They thanked me profusely for recognizing the issue and calling it in to them, otherwise when the next federal monthly audit came up they would have been missing a gun on paper, not a good thing.

Wow, what an eventful day. Took my free Wally World 20 gauge Hatfield SAS apart. I had talked earlier to a WW employee at the store that gave me the shotgun and he said it had been on display for over 2 years and that one of their employees had worked on it. Yea, it was not well, so I called Hatfield Customer Service this morning and sent it off for them to fix.

I took it to my LGS/FFL holder for shipping and my 12 gauge Pointer Phenoma came in just as I arrived. I ordered this through Kentucky Guns on sale for $315, after a little internet research had told me this is manufactured by the same Turkish company, Armsan, that makes the TriStar Viper G2, which is a gas design based on the Winchester SX-3. I have been looking for a TriStar Viper G2 at a good price for over a year, but the price on them keeps going up. So I took a chance on this Pointer Phenoma distributed by Legacy Sports International, thinking this Pointer Phenoma would be the same gun but a little cheaper quality. I was wrong, I have to say this shotgun exceed my expectations. It came in a hard case with 5 chokes and choke tool, 2 stock spacers for adjusting drop and a stock extender to adjust LOP, and a color manual that goes through disassembly in detail, including the stock, bolt, and trigger group.

The gun itself is a dark bronze Cerakoted barrel and receiver, while the synthetic stock has a soft rubber overmold in Mossy Oak Bottom Lands camouflage. Fit and finish on my gun is in line with any $1,000 shotgun I have seen, and all of the machining and materials are top quality. I have handled a number of TriStar Viper G2 and Winchester SX-3 shotguns and this Pointer Phenoma is the same gas design, but better machined.

LOL, While writing this I forgot the name of the camo, so I went to Kentucky Guns website and pulled up that gun and, low and behold, they dropped the price to $283 with free shipping. Anyone looking for a great 12 gauge auto at a great price, this is it. They also have this model in Real Tree Max5 camo and OD Green Cerakoted barrel and receiver for the same price.

https://www.kygunco.com/productgroup?name=phenoma&utm_source=KyGunCo Marketing&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=Halloween

I started out wanting a good gas auto for bird hunting. I ordered the 12 gauge Pointer Phenoma about two weeks ago, then I took a chance on a $206 28 gauge Hatfield SAS that I thought would be a great little quail gun, and ended up with a free 20 gauge Hatfield SAS courtesy of Wally World.

I got a good surprise yesterday on the Pointer Phenoma. I was smoking a cigar at the local cigar shop and we were talking about that Pointer and the price dropping to $283 at Kentucky Gun. Two of my friends there decided that was too good of a price to pass up, plus it would give them a cheap gun to take duck hunting and not worry about it getting bumped or dunked. That is when I found out that the sale price only appears if you go there from the email sales ad that Kentucky Gun sends out. So they plug in the URL from my phone to get to the sale price. One of them says he may order a couple more when he gets home for Christmas presents. It really is that nice of a semi-auto shotgun.

So after those guys leave, the cigar shop owner comes over and asks me which model did I have, handing me one of those color catalogs from Legacy Sports International. So I thumb through it and find the model I have, and he laughs. He says, the reason it looks like a $1,000 shotgun is because it is. There it was, MSRP listed at $999. I am feeling better about this shotgun every day.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2111USMC

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,813 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Here are the Hatfield SAS in wood, and the Pointer Phenoma in camo.

28 and 12 guage shotguns.jpg

28 and 12 guage shotguns backside.jpg

I got out and shot the 12 gauge Pointer Phenoma today (I shot the 28 Gauge SAS earlier in the week). I found some old low brass shells that had been in my closet for at least 15 years. I figured if it can cycle this old stuff, it can cycle anything. As I was loading this stuff in the Pointer, I noticed a good bit of corrosion around the primers, but she cycled everything without a hitch and all of those old shells fired. The only shells I could find in 28 gauge were high brass #7 1/2 and the old 12 gauge stuff was target load #8, but I swear it felt like the 28 gauge kicked more than the 12 gauge. They both cycle faster than I can pull the trigger.

I am tempted to buy another Pointer at $283 because I know I can get at least twice what I paid for it. I know Christmas is coming up, but all the kids already have nice shotguns.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NativeTexan

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,695 Posts
I see used Remington and browning auto 5's at every gun show for $300-$500. Nobody wants old hunting guns. They want gold trigger safe queens or tacticool pumps. Go to a gun show and you'll find what you're looking for in a 1960-1980 hunting auto in good working order.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,813 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
LOL, I already have a pair of Browning Belgium built Auto-5s, and a pair of 870s, and a couple of other older shotguns.

The Hatfields are simple budget gas shotguns, but crudely made. When I get through with them they will be much better guns.

The Pointer Phenoma is a modern gas auto, based on the Winchester SX3, that is a finely made $1,000 shotgun. I don't know why Kentucky Gun has them on sale for $283, but they are a heck of a deal. I am thinking about getting another because I know I can sell it for at least twice what I paid for it.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,956 Posts
Get a Remington 1100, you cannot go wrong.....
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
34,949 Posts
I saw the Hatfield at Walmart when they first came out, liked what I saw. Walmart had it for under 300 and in 20 gauge 3" which interchanges, of course, with 2 3/4. I'd likely never shoot 3" in it as I've found they don't generally pattern as well. I move up to a 12 when I have hunted ducks which I don't do anymore as I'm too damned old and it's too tough to get out into the marsh, let alone with deeks, shells, shotgun, and marsh chair on my back. As much as I love it, I'm afraid my duck hunting days are over.

But, I still dove hunt at least one trip every season. I ended up with what I really wanted, a 20 gauge O/U CZ Redhead Delux. Fit is outstanding and it's a sharp looking gun. It is also a Turkish gun, Huglu, despite the CZ stamps on it. It's a quality gun, though. I liked that Hatfield, but I didn't end up with it. I have an older Winchester M1400, cheap gun that shoots great for me, points natural. It's my only semi-auto.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,400 Posts
Get a Remington 1100, you cannot go wrong.....
That's right.........bought one at JC Penney's for $199 back around '77, used it for squirrel, birds, and deer. Fantastic shooting gun- 28" mod barrel, never an issue. Quit hunting years ago, its been in the closet forever. My boys came home one day and wanted to shoot. They dug it out with some other long guns and grabbed some 25 year+ old ammo and banged away. They said the 1100 was a smooth shooter. That was a good design-period.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
474 Posts
Thanks for the Walmart story. I'm picking up a Mossberg 500 tomorrow for my son. Now I know how to follow up if they give me the wrong box.

Congrats on your new shotguns.

Sent from my moto e5 cruise using Tapatalk
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
34,949 Posts
Shotguns are an individual choice. Everyone has different dimensions and what fits me might not fit anyone else. Fit is a very important thing in a bird gun. It should point naturally and you'll find your bags is full before much ammo is used. :D AND, you won't have a bruised up face from recoil. A pump or auto can be shimmed to adjust to the individual, but most doubles cannot due to the way the tang fits the stock. Best be SURE you like the fit before you buy. :D The CZ fit was sweet and it's an awesome quick on target shotgun for ME.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RonPT24/7

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,293 Posts
Shotguns are an individual choice. Everyone has different dimensions and what fits me might not fit anyone else. Fit is a very important thing in a bird gun. It should point naturally and you'll find your bags is full before much ammo is used. :D AND, you won't have a bruised up face from recoil. A pump or auto can be shimmed to adjust to the individual, but most doubles cannot due to the way the tang fits the stock. Best be SURE you like the fit before you buy. :D The CZ fit was sweet and it's an awesome quick on target shotgun for ME.
I’m thinking seriously of selling my Franchi next year and getting a CZ712 . I’ve watched alot of bird shows on the outdoor channel and that particular one is used for any type bird hunt in 12 or 20-ga and they are very nice looking SGs’ . I’ll be looking for a dealer where i can go and get hands on testing .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,813 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
The CZ shotguns are made by the Turkish firm Huglu is my understanding.

I used my uncle's Remy 1100 for many years and they are fine shotguns, but they also command a good price, not as high as a Belgian made Auto5, but still up there. However, Remington's SX3, IMO, is a better gas semi-auto for about the same price as the 1100.

Make no mistake, those Hatfields are crudely made. They look nice on the outside, but the innards are crudely made, especially the action bar. However, they function well. I will be refining the interior parts of both guns, when the 20 gauge gets back from Hatfield. But for a cheap gun you can throw behind the seat in the truck and not worry about it getting beat up, it fits that bill well.

The Pointer Phenoma came with 2 neck spacers to adjust drop and a butt pad spacer to adjust Length of Pull. The shotgun out of the box fits me well with the front sight lining up right when I shoulder it. My 2 friends who ordered the same shotgun at the lower price have already received theirs. Kentucky Gun ships fast. The fit and finish of their guns was on par with the one I have.

I had a friend at Fort Benning who liked to duck hunt and he told me to be a good duck hunter you have to enjoy being miserable.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,956 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,813 Posts
Discussion Starter #18

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
34,949 Posts
The CZ company is located in Czechoslovakia, but their shotguns are made in Turkey by Huglu. Their pistols and rifles are, to my knowledge made in Czechoslovakia.
Correct. My CZ even has a Huglu stamp and a "made in Turkey" stamped on it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,293 Posts
Yeah after web searching for a while I finally read over that statement I think it was Wikipedia . Reguardless the CZ SGs' are the better fine made SGs' at reasonable price . But if you don't want anything Turkey made might as well just buy a Remington to be safe .
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top