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Discussion Starter #1
Is there any data concerning the knock down power of, say, a +P+ .45 frangible compared to a .45 HP of the same weight but in standard velocity?

That is, high speed frangible vs low speed normal penetration.

This might also be asked as, "Is there _ANY_ case in which mere thumping works?"

Thanks a million

JimL
 

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Well, there is a few places/people who have compiled actual shooting results from many areas over long periods of time. One who has done this is Evan Marshall and Ed Sannow. They're the authors of the Street Stoppers series of books. Stopping Power is the newest of the 3. The assorted articles inside are also great and very informative. They aren't cheap but the info is excellent. My copies are books that are not available to be lent out.
https://www.stoppingpower.net/store/comersus_listItems.asp?idCategory=50

Now, before some here chose to begin arguing with me as to the validity of M&S's results or methods, everyone can chose for themselves who's data to follow. The One Shot Stop is not a tactical philosophy, its a unit of measure. Anyone who's told you differently about this series is lying to you and I'd love to see their reference. My source for this is Evan Marshall. I'd rather use whats consistently worked well in the past as a reference point for what will hopefully work well in the future. Not everything in this world can be replicated in a lab environment.

Steelheart
 

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Damn, thought this thread was going to be about electro-shock therapy... At the risk of derailing this thread, how long can you keep a 9volt battery on your tongue?
 

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DRAEGER said:
Damn, thought this thread was going to be about electro-shock therapy... At the risk of derailing this thread, how long can you keep a 9volt battery on your tongue?
I really think you should get a fresh battery and do a study and report on the subject, because you brought it up.
 

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Draeger, I would think longer than your 12 Volt car battery. I have a hard time hitting both posts. Does not impress the wife either. :D
 

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Robby said:
I really think you should get a fresh battery and do a study and report on the subject, because you brought it up.

I could do that but it would be more fun as a competition between other forum members, with pictures of course :)
 

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muttmutt said:
Draeger, I would think longer than your 12 Volt car battery. I have a hard time hitting both posts. Does not impress the wife either. :D
be more impressive watching the wife do it anyway....
 

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I'll wait for the video. Contestants should verify with a multimeter that the battery has a charge at the beginning before the clock begins.

And would you want to win or lose to your wife?

Steelheart
 

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Discussion Starter #9
DRAEGER said:
Damn, thought this thread was going to be about electro-shock therapy... At the risk of derailing this thread, how long can you keep a 9volt battery on your tongue?
Well, I WAS hoping someone could explain any value of frangables, but you fixed that.

JimL
 

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I am sorry for derailing the post, I really didn't intend to. I guess the problem was the title of the thread brought like minded people (twisted & demented) together, likes moths to a flame :)

Personally I have mixed feelings when using frangible ammunition because it limits your abilities, but then again that is what its suppose to do. As for ballistic information, I know there is info out there just not sure where at the moment. I have rarely found the need for +P ammunition because in my opinion if you need more power get a bigger gun and with the amount of ammo I shoot in a year I don't need the extra stress on my firearms.
 

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Or extra stress on your wallet !!
 

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In a nutshell---- frangible ammunition such as Glaser safety slugs and Magsafe are mainly intended for one purpose. That is to reduce penetration in hard targets if you miss your soft target. Quite useful for defense in the home and is used by Federal Air Marshals on commercial flights.

I personally use the Glaser rounds for my home defense pistols and revolvers now.

Just in case the SOB is wearing body armor I have a 12 gauge Mossberg 500 cruiser loaded with Ranger slugs. ;D ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #13
DRAEGER said:
I guess the problem was the title of the thread
In case there is still any puzzlement here's the translation. A BG needs a serious attitude adjustment. You apply +P+ frangible (if there is such a thing) shock as therapy.

The success (or lack of it) of such therapy is something I have no experience in, particularly as regards how effective a very large frangible moving very,very fast (therefore the +P+ idea) might be.

In my mind I saw a possibility that a frangible moving something like 1500 fps would be a tad more effective than one moving 850 fps. How big of a tad I have no idea.

JimL
 

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Discussion Starter #14
NYPD in AZ said:
In a nutshell---- frangible ammunition such as Glaser safety slugs and Magsafe are mainly intended for one purpose. That is to reduce penetration in hard targets if you miss your soft target. Quite useful for defense in the home and is used by Federal Air Marshals on commercial flights.

I personally use the Glaser rounds for my home defense pistols and revolvers now.

Just in case the SOB is wearing body armor I have a 12 gauge Mossberg 500 cruiser loaded with Ranger slugs. ;D ;)
I read something that made me wonder what a frangible could do if moving really fast. I know there's plenty of material saying there's no such thing as knocking a BG down by mere shock power, but there must be levels of effectiveness. Like if you didn't think a double tap would work, what would?

I'm not looking for advice as to what defense round to use, rather turning theories over in my mind. Kinda like how someone once thought, "I wonder what would happen if you put an 11 degree chamfer on the business end of a barrel instead of a 90 degree cut or round. (I still haven't found what's that's all about.)

JimL
 

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My choice for home defense, or defence! Is a 45/410 Judge. I alternate the barrels with shot, and slugs. If the shot does not slow them up, I am sure the next will!! I keep hollow points but for some reason that big solid slug looks more like the way to go. Darn things will go thru an aged 3.5" oak timber at PD range.
 

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I never checked that, on box or other wise, but there was a hole on both sides after I fired from about 7 yards. Oh, and I have not been able to buy any more of those since. 45 colts, unless you want expensive stuff is hard to find. I am broke from buying guns, so I look for the cheap stuff now. I think those were 185 grain or something like that.
 

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Was wondering about this thread, since Taurus doesn't market a Taser here, yet. :eek:

+P+ .45 ACP ammunition is almost non-existant, particlulary for civilians and I've never seen any on inventory for Law Enforcement. What you really have with that is what's called the .45 SUPER, and the Pistol must be properly sprung (recoil spring and/or mainspring) to digest it.

+P .45 ACP ammo is also quite scarce, but I have seen some for sale, a loooong time ago. In theory any +P or +P+ rated round will impart more energy with the added velocity to it's target with bullet expansion occuring slightly faster, depending upon it's construction. Personally, I've found no need for +P level ammunition in my .45 ACP pistols.
 

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Ok, maybe I should have made the full statement. These were not 45 ACP, they were 45 Colts. When I bought my judge, I bought a box of shells that the shop owner said were good ones. The gun had been thoroughly cleaned by the shop, so I loaded up, set up a target, aka boards and cardboard and cut loose with them. I admit that what I have purchased since, do not have as much bite to them as those did. I believe I paid a premium price, and he may have sold me the most expensive rounds on his shelf. But boy they did punch some holes, out of that 6.5" barrel.

Unless I want to pay over $30 to 40 some a box, which I don't. I am limited to some cowboy loads, and some cheap JHP's.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
jwc007 said:
+P .45 ACP ammo is also quite scarce, but I have seen some for sale, a loooong time ago. In theory any +P or +P+ rated round will impart more energy with the added velocity to it's target with bullet expansion occuring slightly faster, depending upon it's construction. Personally, I've found no need for +P level ammunition in my .45 ACP pistols.
I'm not sure if you're replying to my frangibles theorizing or Robby's Judge comments or both or neither.

JimL
 
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