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An old man in South Texas years ago showed me the trick to stop bad guys at self-defense range with a .357 mag. A lead hollow-base wad cutter... loaded reverse (so the hollow base is one nasty hollow point)... loaded over a light charge. These are not for target practice since the hollow base will tumble because of the air foil effect, but at 20 feet they are pretty awesome and you don't have to worry about over penetration... they kind of explode and fragment.

Has anyone else heard of this approach?
 

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I've heard of it. A few decades back it was a method to try and get some expansion out of your 38. I think it was before the 158gr LHP loads came out. Now, I'd would only use something like that as a last resort as there are many loads that will work. I'd expect shallow penetration but a real large hole. I suspect that just about any recent to modern expanding bullet would give more reliable results.

Might be fun to load up some just to screw around with at the range. Might be able to start a trend with the local range commandos....

Steelheart
 

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This was popular back in the 70's and early 80's.

Made some up for a friends .38 snubby and tested them on some water filled plastic milk jugs. Soft Lead Swaged ones expanded better than the hardcast ones. These days I would use a swaged half jacketed 158 grn HP as they can be driven faster with HS6 powder. Midway used to sell Remington Surplus Half jacketed 158 grn HP's, and probably still does.
 

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Yeah, I even read gun articles about it. Thing I worry about is adequate penetration and I don't think they'd be very accurate past hand shake ranges. Gimme a good hollow point 158 grainer, either jacketed or SWC, and I'm happy.

The Speer 200 grain "flying ashtrays" always sort of reminded me of the upside down wadcutter trick. LOL HUGE cavity on those .45 caliber bullets. I have some stashed. They're no longer available, but the 200 grain gold dot is similar.
 

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jwc007 said:
This was popular back in the 70's and early 80's.
Oops! Now my age comes out... that was back when I had little one's that I worried about... now they're up and grown. And all of your are right on... you don't need to worry about over penetration... they won't likely go through a person, let alone walls, etc... they are close range only... they have the aerodynamics of the rear end of a jet engine... and they are awesome on milk jugs! (But what isn't at 15 ft?)
 

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I keep this old Victory model .38 special stoked with Hornady 158 grain HB bullets pointed backward and well extended out of the brass case. Been doing this for several years now.

They really tear up something going in and out...little hole going in, big hole on the exit.

These loads are in the 900 fps velocity range, and they do penetrate well through three wet 2X4s and debris filled 50 gallon barrel and out the other side.

I've also got four speed loaders loaded up in the same fashion in .44 special and .45 Colt calibers for some bigger irons.

Jim

 

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weregunner
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Join Date: 08-12-06
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 420 These guys have hit the nail on the head. Forget the wadcutter stuff . The velocity is was to low for self defense. Little or no expansion.Deformation,yes.

No bullet has a sharp edge that will cut flesh if the bullet is standing still. Ever hear of anyone getting first aid cause their carry load cut them? Flesh is very resistant and snaps back to where it was previously been, unless something disrupts it.

What wadcutters do on paper does not happen in flesh.

Accuracy testing was done on wadcutters reversed in the cartridge case. Accuracy suffers drastically as distance increases. Every year a writer in a magazine does the reverse wadcutter theme. The results are the same. Works at handshake range. Quite a few of the reverse loads shot don't even expand. Have you ever heard of verifiable shootings with regular wadcutters or reversed ones?

Home loaded brewed defense ammo has to be verified in court when a shooting happens. This can be done with commercail ammo. This can be verified in a lab by lot number of the ammo used. Many shots will be needed as well as possible retests.Do you want to bet a lengthy prison stay or worse on home made loads? Even if you keep records you have to prove that all the ammo was loaded the same way without change.

Mas Ayoob puts out at least two soft cover books on combat handguns a year. He covers the whys and wheres on all this.

So do other knowledgeable writers including Chuck Taylor and Spaulding.Dr.Topper has also written on this if you can find his works.

So pick one of the good JHPs and you can't go wrong. Since no handgun bullet is a deathray one will have to take caution and may have to shoot quickly and accurately.Follow up shots are easier when not +P. Good luck on your choice and stay safe.
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This is an oldie from The High Road forum from some time back. The info is still relevant.

An individual had asked about using FMJ or reverse wadcutters. There's more to it, but trying to get a link with them is nothing short of a career. At least for this one. :)
 

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Qwiks draw said:
Tracker Backer. You wouldn't be near Merrill or Marshfield by chance, would you? :)
===============================================

I'm about 140 miles north of Marshfield. Its pretty much boondocks and lakes up here.

TB C45
 

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Milwaukee metro area myself. Don't get to the north woods as much as I'd like to these days. Have to find some place that isn't an aquarium or aquarium like in the state right know. :) Yeah, yeah, Flyer. Back on track. :D
 

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Where is there a law that claims you have to have factory ammo in your defense firearm.

If you are a victim of a crimminal perp, and you have to shoot this perp to preserve your family or yourself...what difference does it make to use factory ammo or reverse loaded HB slugs.

How does Mas Ayoob come off claiming this is critical in a court of law.

If the shooting is justified for self defense, how can there be legal intanglments to snare you because you fired reloaded ammo. That is a lot of horse apples.

Jim
 

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I reload a ton of ammo and have two brothers that are lawyers and even if a shooting is justifiable the lawyer for the perps family will sue you and make it look like you're some kind of degenerate gun nut! It stinks but my 45's and 357's for personal protection are stuffed with factory ammo.
Spencer, WI. Tavern and gun shop. 8 mi n of Marshfield. IRISH
 

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Reloads for defense are truly a bad idea. It opens a legal can of worms that an opposing lawyers of prosecuters will use against you. Then there is the recreation of court of the exact ammo that will be needed in testing for court evidence. Batches of like commerecial ammo can be obtained by the defense and with a similar or same gun, can have test done that show the ballistic evidence for you is real and viable. With home brewed stuff, it cannot be replicated in that same form, or way, and allowed in as evidence. Even if the recipe is the same. That is the way it works.Commercial ammo is made the same way and with the same batch consistency can be shown. Since questions can be raised about the how,when, or no way to know if each box of handloaded ammo is the same ( even if documented human fallibility will be introduced as you could have made mistakes), then the prosecution can and will hang the accused out to dry.

Why one does not use reloads for defense.

As for Mas Ayoobs record:

28 + years as a police officer. Still an active officer. 30th year as an accredited deadly force instructor.
15 years as a chair of the firearms committee for the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers, 11 years as a senior research associate for the Center of Advancement of Applied Ethics at Carnigie-Mellon University, 14 years as a police department prosecutor, two years as co-chair of the forensic evidence committee of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. MOre than a decade as a trustee of the Second Amendment Foundation,1995 won the first National Tactical Advocate award,1998 was OUtstanding Handgunner of the Year,won the Roy Rodgers Award for advocacy of responsible firearm use, James Madison award for the advocacy of Second Amendment rights for private citizens, 7 books written on deadly force,it's use, and ramifications, the law ans how it pertains to shootings.

That's his credentials.
One has to know the law and hold the high college degrees to do what he does. also has to know the law forwards and backwards. It's been and is his job.

The trial lawyer's association printed above,sends out teams across the country to educate attorney generals,defense lawyers,police departments, civilians,judges, and other involved people. Mas Ayoob is part of the teams that go out and do this. He reports in tactical and police journals all the info given him by the lawyers and the justice system in general. Even give examples of cases and the ones that are setting precedent for further court cases at all court levels.

So I figure with that kind of background,experience, and resources in the know, he must know something. His writings are backed up with the facts as they are known.
 

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OK, no reloads for the bad guy.

Hince forth I will use only factory loaded 12 gauge 00 Buckshot. That will make a terrible mess, but in line with the justice prosecutor departments bottom feeders. ;D

Sorry, not impressed with Mas credentials, he's not a regular cop. He's a gun scribe for a gunny Gun magazine.

Where does a relative of a perp, said perp is trying to do you or your family bodily harm with intent to murder you or them, have any legal rights to sue you for using deadly force against him in a shoot out.

Is our police or justice department so screwed up they can't be trusted to do the right thing for victims of bad guys. That's a silly question, our politicians are so screwed up and self serving they care nothing about victims rights.

Jim
 

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His credentials are not just a gun scribe. He holds many degrees in law,police science, and armed combat. Accredited as a armed deadly force instructor from many defense schools each for each type of the weapon. Night stick,Kubaton, longarms and handguns. He also listens to what others accredited in the self defense biz have to show as well. If it works it gets put into classes and seminars.

The military services are teaching his methods and techniques. Other well known shooting schools also have their techniques being used as well.

So if you do not like what he is or does and what he espouses, oh well. Most of what is taught is also used by other world class trainers as well.

Your choice. :D
 

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Thank you for respecting my choice. ;)

As a hopelessly washed up old fart, I can't use any of his multi talented tricks.

Will have to use 71 years of age as a big bore shooter to achieve a proper shot dispensation.

Save his fabulous experience for the readers of Guns and American Handgunner, or the Ninja crowd that is impressed with his work.

Jim
 

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Tracker Backer C45 said:
Where does a relative of a perp, said perp is trying to do you or your family bodily harm with intent to murder you or them, have any legal rights to sue you for using deadly force against him in a shoot out.

Is our police or justice department so screwed up they can't be trusted to do the right thing for victims of bad guys. That's a silly question, our politicians are so screwed up and self serving they care nothing about victims rights.

Jim
I'd say that they have no right but the sad fact is that they have done so successfully many times. One of the horrible side effects of our sue-happy and overly PC world we're stuck living in.

Steelheart
 

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Castle Laws provide civil immunity for a person who lawfully uses deadly force. Texas now has one such law as well as many other states. :thumb:
 

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Right on, Smokewagon. One has to live in a proper state to exact the use of Constitutional rights legally to defend their family and themselves.

Something is really wrong with that scenario, the old lady holding the scales of justice must have let her blindfold slip a tad so she could generate them rights in the good states. You can't be deaf, dumb or blind, when it comes to 2nd Amendment rights.

The justice system has to be totally fair and honest...that'll be the day. Our liberal commie run states suck.

Jim
 
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