Taurus Firearm Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 117 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
82 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been told that reloading hollow points is a bad idea, because you will get sued by the family of the perp if you ever use them in self-defense situations. Is this true?

I don't see how it would be any different than if you use self-defense rounds off the shelf of a sporting goods store.

(BTW - I am in Washington State if the state laws make a difference.)
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
18,470 Posts
It generally IS a bad idea because if there is any question to the just cause of the shooting, the local prosecuter can consider using it against you. i.e. you had a predisposition to planned violence enough to make your own ammunition to do it!

Also, Reloads can degrade over less time than Factory Ammunition, depending upon the level of case preperation used. Good Factory Ammo has a longer shelf life. Also, Primers on good Self-Defense Ammo are sealed against Gun Oil penetration. Most Reloads are not. You can buy Primer Sealant for your Reloads, but so few do!

On the flip side of this, it has not been done to my knowledge, but there could be cases out there that have not been publicized! If reloads are all you have on hand, you have to do what you have to!

(Clint Eastwood's Dirty Harry Voice)
You also have to ask yourself one question.

Which is cheaper? Good Factory Ammunition or your Lawyers Billable Hourly Rate? I'm guessing it would most likely be the Good Factory Ammunition!

I am a Reloader, but my First Line Defensive ammunition is Factory Loaded!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,043 Posts
jwc007 said:
It generally IS a bad idea because if there is any question to the just cause of the shooting, the local prosecuter can consider using it against you. i.e. you had a predisposition to planned violence enough to make your own ammunition to do it!

I am a Reloader, but my First Line Defensive ammunition is Factory Loaded!
I'm not a lawyer but I am a cop and I agree 100% with using factory ammo in your SD firearms. Why even put yourself in that situation in court.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
18,470 Posts
JFree said:
I have been told that reloading hollow points is a bad idea, because you will get sued by the family of the perp if you ever use them in self-defense situations. Is this true?
(BTW - I am in Washington State if the state laws make a difference.)
Also, no matter how justified the shoot, you will probably be sued by the bad guys relatives! Home brewed defensive ammo just gives their Lawyer a legal club to beat on you with, if they figure that out, in court testimony.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
663 Posts
JFree said:
I don't see how it would be any different than if you use self-defense rounds off the shelf of a sporting goods store.
With the judges and hot-shot lawyers we have today it's like I said in another area. It's all about who can buy the most technicalities. And I would add, it's about who can "manufacture" the most technicalities. :soapbox:

Don't give them ANYTHING to blow out of proportion. Give them a micro crack and they'll drive a tank through it!

Common sense is no longer common.

JimL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
846 Posts
In Texas they did away with the law suites, they can't do it unless you break the law and it is not a legal shoot.. I don't agree if you use FMJ bullets you have the chance to go through someone and hit a third party, then you are in trouble! All police carry HP now of days, I have as much right as they to protect myself and my family. It may vary from state to state, but I've never heard of a problem coming from the type of ammo use here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,043 Posts
texas shooter said:
In Texas they did away with the law suites, they can't do it unless you break the law and it is not a legal shoot.. I don't agree if you use FMJ bullets you have the chance to go through someone and hit a third party, then you are in trouble! All police carry HP now of days, I have as much right as they to protect myself and my family. It may vary from state to state, but I've never heard of a problem coming from the type of ammo use here.
Not ALL hollowpoint ammo-----just homemade handloads. Factory new ammo is A-OK. ;)
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
35,599 Posts
I use nothing, but my own loads and don't worry about it. Either a shooting is justified or it's not way I look at it. If I lived in some pansy arsed jurisdiction like in New Jersey or something, I wouldn't use handloads, but then it'd probably be illegal to own a gun there.

Also, in the most probable locations, in your home or car or place of business, you're now covered by the Castle Doctrine and immune to civil action. I do take the precaution of loading store bought bullets in store bought brass and matching 'em, at least in .38. I load Remington bullets I buy bulk in Remington brass. I, however, prefer the accuracy of speer in .357 and .45 (which I load in Speer brass) and Hornady in 9mm/.380.

I know these loads work because I can afford to shoot a lot of 'em.

BTW, only under the castle doctrine can you not be sued in Texas. On the street, you're own your own unless you're in your car, or perhaps on your motorcycle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,043 Posts
JimL said:
So are you advising people here to tempt fate?

JimL
I don't think anyone is advising others. Everyone has their own opinion on it.
My opinion is to use factory ammo in SD firearms. NativeTexan's opinion is to use his own handloads. I respect his point of view as I'm sure he respects mine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
663 Posts
NYPD in AZ said:
I don't think anyone is advising others.
Well, I was going by the title of the thread - a question. Looked to me like it was asking for advice. I'm not certain an old timer's opinion is not taken as advice. ;D

JimL
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
35,599 Posts
So are you advising people here to tempt fate?

JimL
No, just stating what I do. Do as you think best. What I do should be of no concern to you and don't consider it advise. Nope, not in this case. It's totally up to you what you wanna do or what you think about it. Massad Ayoob recommends only factory ammo and I respect his opinion being in the business, but I choose, personally, not to follow it.

My reasons are that I'm not a rich man and I prefer using ammunition that has put many rounds downrange without failure and that I am comfortable with and KNOW where it's going to go and that it's going to function the gun. In autos, I'd NEVER EVER shoot magsafe. The stuff is outragious expensive and I can't afford to put the number of rounds through my gun that would take to prove to me the stuff will be trouble free. Now, a revolver, if lived in an appartment, would only take enough rounds to prove accuracy, but autos make me nervous. I wanna make DANG SURE they work. If you wish to use an auto for self defense, choose a load that you can afford at least 200 rounds to cycle through the gun flawlessly before you trust it with your life. Me, I prefer more, 500, 1000 rounds flawless and I gain confidence. Consider THAT advice. :D

One way you can do this if you handload is choose a round like the Speer Gold Dot, then handload Gold Dots to the same OAL and same velocity as the factory round and put a few factory rounds and a couple hundred of your handload clones through the gun. However, you still don't likely have the exact powder charge in the gun, but probably close enough. I just know that my handloads work because I've fired thousands of em (affordably) through the gun without a hitch. I can't afford to do that with stuff that costs 15 or 20 bucks for 20 rounds, not for every one of my carry guns anyway. I'm cheap.

I'd probably GAIN some performance with some factory loads. For instance, my 90 grain hornady XTP .380 load only makes about 190 ft lbs out of a 3" barreled .380. Cor Bon would no doubt beat that. But, Cor Bon is expensive.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
35,599 Posts
You know, too, I don't think the cops or prosecutor in this one horse town even knows what handloading is. Most of 'em don't know which end of the barrel the bullet comes out of. Barney Fife comes to mind, but whadda ya expect for 8 bucks an hour.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10,043 Posts
NativeTexan said:
You know, too, I don't think the cops or prosecutor in this one horse town even knows what handloading is. Most of 'em don't know which end of the barrel the bullet comes out of. Barney Fife comes to mind, but whadda ya expect for 8 bucks an hour.
LMAO
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
663 Posts
NativeTexan said:
I just know that my handloads work because I've fired thousands of em (affordably) through the gun without a hitch. I can't afford to do that with stuff that costs 15 or 20 bucks for 20 rounds, not for every one of my carry guns anyway. I'm cheap.
I'm certainly not knowledgeable about loading - you can take that to the bank ... so to speak. But I'd guess you make all your own bullets. I just looked at some loading supplies a few months ago and factory bullets cost as much as actual factory cartridges. :)

JimL
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
35,599 Posts
I can get 100 rounds of premium bullets for under 15 bucks from midwayusa.com. Hornady XTP is my fave in 9 and .380. The 115 grain XTP is 13 bucks a hundred. I load 'em for about 7-8 bucks a box of 50. Some of your premium loads cost that much for 20 rounds.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=736198&t=11082005

If you settle on remington bullets (I use 'em in .38), you can get 'em in bulk for about 8 dollars a hundred.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=278887&t=11082005

Oh, you can use Remington hollow point at about 15 bucks a box of 50. Bare in mind, 9mm is about THE CHEAPEST ammo on the market. Still, I'm getting my ammo for HALF the price of the cheapest stuff on the market. I trust that my loads will outperform that stuff. Price some of the cheaper (not talking Cor Bon) .45ACP sometime. How are you going to tell me I can't load cheaper? Back it up with numbers!

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=890890&t=11082005

For much of my shooting, yes, I do cast my own bullets and load a box for well under $2, but I load premium hollowpoints for carry. I load the practice rounds on a progressive. I use my single stage Lyman press and carefully craft my carry ammo. It works.

I have considered using a 105 grain cast bullet I make for .380. It's a very flat pointed, sharp shouldered SWC. My thinking is, it's very reliable (load to max OAL) and accurate and I don't really want a hollowpoint opening much in .380. Penetration is at a premium in this caliber. I'm still milling that one over in my head. Need to do some wet newsprint tests, but that's a pain to do when you have to drive to the range to shoot.

Here is a box of premium ammo that would perform close to my 9mm load (1263 fps out of a 3" barrel for a 115 grain Hornady XTP, 1340 out of a 4.5" barrel). Check it out, 20 dollars for 20 rounds. That's a dollar a round. You gonna pony up for 500 rounds of that stuff for testing?

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=641328&t=11082005
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,447 Posts
I've always preferred using my own loads for SD too, but these guys are correct, IMO, in what they say about using factory HP (or whatever tip you choose) instead of roll your own HP. It is cheaper to buy the more expensive store bought stuff than to pay an ambulance chasing lawyer to have to make a case to a judge and jury about why you used those "terrible flesh ripping bullets on that poor kid that only wanted to kill you and steal your car".

There was a family man hiking alone in Arizona some years ago and ended up killing a guy with a dog who was camping near the hiking trail. The jury convicted him and he is now doing time for the shooting and although the type of ammo wasn't the reason why the jury took the position that they did, they did question his need to have a large caliber semi-auto handgun loaded with hollow point bullets. I think he was using Eagle Talons if I'm not mistaken. I believe the jury would've still convicted him otherwise, but the fact that the type of ammo he used came into question lets us know that a jury will look at what you have your gun stoked with and why you have it loaded that way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
80 Posts
jwc007 said:
Also, no matter how justified the shoot, you will probably be sued by the bad guys relatives! Home brewed defensive ammo just gives their Lawyer a legal club to beat on you with, if they figure that out, in court testimony.

You cannot get sued if you state has adopted the "Castle doctrine", but even so, the Prosecuting Attorney that did our CPL course advised against using handload ammo for self defense. Even tough a hollow point is designed to leave a hole the size of a fist or better, if you load ammo to kill, it can be construed that you were 'trying' to kill the BG. Just my .02 worth.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,447 Posts
Xiphos said:
....if you load ammo to kill, it can be construed that you were 'trying' to kill the BG.
As opposed to "ammo to wound"? Who would be able to tell the difference afterwards?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
80 Posts
PTDOUDE said:
As opposed to "ammo to wound"? Who would be able to tell the difference afterwards?
I know, that's the stupid part of the whole thing. If you use an ammo someone esle made to kill, it's okay. If you make it yourself to kill, it impies 'intent to kill'. Which is the same as using factory loads, hollowpoints aren't made to go easy on flesh......
 
1 - 20 of 117 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top