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Discussion Starter #1
I have the RossiCircuit Judge in blue, same as the judge magnum with a 3"chamber. I got itfor xmas and I took it out shooting yesterday for the first time, wow was Iimpressed. The 45 colt shells where accurate and had very little kick. I reloadmy 357 and my 45 acp so I’m going to get a Chronograph and start gettingserious with this. I haven’t seen anybody do any kind of work ups on this newrifle and I think I will be the first to do so and actually print my findings.

After some datacrunching I have found a powder that I’m going to end up as my main test bed. Ihave been doing allot of thinking about trying to turn a pistol cartage into arifle cartridge, 45colt with IMR 7828 behind it. Looking at the data that I canfind about the powder it is for large caliber rifles with a slow burn time.That is what I’m looking for. Rifles in the larger calibers are trying to shootflying ashtrays out the barrel at 2500-3500fps. I’m trying to shoot the samething but at a much lower velocity, 1200-1500fps. Needless to say my pressureswill be up in the 20,000 or lower areas which I’m confidant the rifle can take.

I’m going to start off with 10gr of IMR 7828 behind a 160gr-200gr tip with justpistol primers and work my way up 5 rounds at a time. I have also thought aboutbuying the 160gr .452 tips and also using my 158gr .451 tips to see if there isany difference in the drag/sealing effecting the accuracy of the round. I have2 pistol powders in storage that I will load up as well with 5 rounds at a timeusing small steps in the grains of powder, until I hit the max of my 45ACP load,which is 16gr on both powders. I will print the findings of the 3 powdersshooting from the Circuit Judge and weigh in on which one I will stay with. I’mnot trying to put all the pressure in just the cylinder, more the whole rifle,hence the slow burning powder and pistol primer. Any ideas are welcome.


 

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Well I don't load for the 45 Long Colt, but 20,000 cup or PSI seems high to me?
now in a Thompson Contender its not and in certain usger frearms its not, I am jsut not familiar with the strength of the Rossi/and or Taurus.
I certianly don't think it would be near as strong as the thompson contender.
doesn't Rossi state to use conventional 45 LC loads that comply with SAAMI standards?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I just got off the phone with an IMR tech. He said that the IMR 7828 would not get the bullet out of the barrel and that even though the IMR 7828 is a rifle powder, it is not intended for a pistol cartrage. I am having doubts on this statement. Now I really want to get some IMR 7828 and the HS6 that he advised, and see which one will perform better. If I lodge a bullet in the barrel I can get it out so why not. I think it would make for good data. As for the 20,000 cup or psi, that is the extream limit that I will go to. After shooting the 3" russian's I know that the cowboy loads that I was shooting were WAY to weak. The 3" russian 410 magnums kicked twice as hard. With the long barrel the 45 colt sounds almost suppressed. I can almost garentee that it was running out of gas by the end of the barrel. We will just have to wait and see!!!!!:guns:
 

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My concern is that a revolver carbine will lose a lot of gas from the cylinder gap. The cylinder gap doesn't matter so much with pistols because the powder is fast-burning and the bullet leaved the barrel in a very short amount of time, but in a long barrel with slow-burning powder, I'm afraid you'll just blow a lot of hot gas and unburned powder out.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
That does make allot of sense. Im wondering if I throw a magnum primer behind some slow powder to get the jumpstart going a little faster that it might just make it. Maby some 4198 or some benchmark would be a better choice to start with. Throw a magnum primer behind that and see what happens. What do you think?
 

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II can almost garentee that it was running out of gas by the end of the barrel. We will just have to wait and see!!!!!:guns:
Was there any muzzle flash??
if so then likely the powder was still burning as it left the barrel.
to each his own but i just don't argue with reloading manuals or Powder Techs at powder companies.
I figure they have/do deal with a lot more computations daily than I do or ever will do in years.
But hey its only some Nitroglycerine , Nitrocellulose that is ignited by a hot flame thats inches away from your face, what can it hurt to experiment.?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
No muzzle flash, just the gasses exiting the barrel. Kicked like a 22hornet and sounded week. Both of the factory loads where feeling week, the cowboy 255gr and the 235gr hollow point. I could tell by the slight diffrence that the 235 had a LITTLE more punch. I will start with a 30% lower powder weight and work it up from there. I will not go over 1500 fps with a 200gr round.
 

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i hope your planning to use a cast bullet? you might think about trying 2400 for a powder, not a rifle powder but works well in my 44-40 Puma rifle. with a cast bullet you should be able to achieve 1500fps using 2400. i CANNOT atest that the judge will handle that pressure.
 

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Sir a good place to start would be buying a Hodgdon's 2012 reloading manual. On page 65 you will find a relative burn rate list from fastest to slowest. Page 64 gives a powder usage list. When you posted about using 7828, though you probably ment 7625, it has a burn rate between AA#2 and HP-38, both are used with handguns a lot. Taurus manuals usually list the 45 colt loads at 900 fps with a 255 grain bullet for their handguns. The Judge and Circuit Judge may be different? I load and shoot some heavy stuff in some custom revolvers, but I always stay within reloading manual limits. Without getting into the why it happens thing just understand that under charges with some powders is also dangerous. H110/296 the same powder has a minimum start load. Some of the large case rifle powders are the same. Powder burn rates, case size and pressure the round operates at all go hand in hand. Building wildcats where you have no data the first thing you do is find a case and bullet diameter close to what you are building and use the powders that work for it. With factory stuff stay with what has been proven. That way you guide lines from factory test giving you a pressure range. Good luck.
 

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A magnum primer MAY help... I just think a revolver carbine, while neat, is not a good platform for slow-burning rifle powder.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thank you "theoldredneck", you have enlightened me in so many ways. I never knew that on the IMR websight that they also give a chart for burn rate by fastest to slowest. I never knew that you could look up on any powder or bullet makers websight and that they will have reloading data. I do appreciate your wisdom...............ok, all jokes aside. Thanks for trying to help but yes I am building wildcats, I have reloaded for the last 2 years on my 357 and my 45acp and now I want to reload my 45colt to shoot in a rifle (the Circuit Judge). Im trying to get peoples opinion on what powder that they would use and when I reload Im going to take down the data and print my findings.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I have a theory about the magnum primer and the large gap that is in the cylinder between the front of the bullet and the and of the cylinder. There is over an inch for the bullet to travel to get to the barrel. I also think that with the slower powder, friction will be my enemy, that is why im looking at a 185gr jacketed .4515 round so I can load the same round in my 45acp. It should have enough diameter to connect with the lands and grooves to spin the bullet, or push the bullet to fast and not have enough contact and strip the jacket off the bullet. But that is what im experimenting for, to see if my theory will work.
 

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you will lose alot of pressure between the bore and that too small bullet. the results will poor accuracy, lower than expected speeds, and copper fouling in the bore. from Hogdon's data 20gr of IMR4227 will give 20,100CUP with a 240gr jacketed hollow point in 45colt. if you look at the data for the 44mag with IMR4227 in both handguns and 20" rifle barrels you can get an idea of what to expect in the 45 with a similar barrel length. by doing this i expect that the above listed load should reach into the high end of the 1,4xxfps range when fired from a 20" lever action, i would expect a bit slower from the revolver type action. again, i do not claim that your Judge will handle this type of pressure. there is realy no need to go into uncharted terriotory, the results you desire can be had with the info at hand.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
15gr of H4198 sent a 160gr cast LFN out the barrel at 1420 with 15,000cup in a 30-30. I think if I go with 14.6gr behind a 185gr .4515-.452 jacketed round, it would be moving out of the barrel at 1500+ fps with less than 15000cup. I want to do a work up with the .452 untill I get the results im looking for then I am going to switch to the .4515 and see if there is a diffrence in performance so I can publish that also. Dang, I got a lot of things going on during this data crunch, lol
 

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It's your life and limb here, man. I think this is a lot like playing with fire. Specifically, it's playing with high explosives and gunpowder. If we don't hear back, where should we send the get-well cards?
 

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. I think this is a lot like playing with fire.
OK< Now we talking bout having some fun!!!---:yipee:

I got Dibbs on the Deluge Gun!!!----:devil:
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I am going to to start off with 13gr and work up form there untill I feel it has become unsafe (the first stuck case or untill I get to 15gr or 1500fps). Slow and true is the way, time to play.
 

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I am going to to start off with 13gr and work up form there untill I feel it has become unsafe (the first stuck case or untill I get to 15gr or 1500fps). Slow and true is the way, time to play.
OK what happened?? 3 months later..DrillSergent still in the hospital or what??
 

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OK what happened?? 3 months later..DrillSergent still in the hospital or what??
??Possibly unable to type a update due to lack of any fingers???
 
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