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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
This is a fresh restart for my previous thread that went off on a tangent: http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/700s/68704-pt709-disassembly-erratic-trigger-force.html

I wanted to be sure that my subjective impression of an unpredictable trigger was correct. Well, I measured my pt709 trigger pull with a digital gauge and I'm ready to send it to Miami for some rework.

My first question is how do I ship a handgun to Taurus. Last time, they emailed me a prepaid shipping label but that was when the gun was newer. This time, I suspect I'll need to handle shipping, so I'm open to advice.

Second, I'd like any feedback on my trigger-pull measurements. I took four sets of ten measurements (dry fire) for three different slide-racking techniques. For reference, the double-action trigger pull force averaged 6.29 pounds with a standard deviation of 0.15 pounds, which is good IMO.

(1) Using a snappy slingshot method to rack the slide, the trigger pull averaged 4.08 pounds with a standard deviation of 1.01 pounds. The minimum was 3.0 pounds (almost a hair trigger), probably dangerous. The highest was one outlier at 6.6 pounds.

(2) Then I racked the slide very slowly and the average trigger pull was 8.05 pounds with a standard deviation of 0.51 pounds. This method should let the sear seat fully and it doubled the trigger force.

(3) Finally, to eliminate variation in my racking technique, I locked the slide back and used the slide release to let the recoil spring close the slide. In this case, the average trigger pill was 8.96 pounds with a standard deviation of 0.39 pounds.

I feel a trigger pull that can be anywhere between 3-10 pounds is unacceptable. Any comments before I contact Taurus CS?
 

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You had the gun in for repair before? So call CS, and see if they will again pick it up for repair?

As to your trigger pull problems, I have no way to judge, only your tests. Good luck on getting it repaired, ????
 

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This is just my perception on your comments and not a criticism by any means. It seems to me that the primary purpose of the Taurus PT709 is for use as a concealed carry, self protection pistol, commonly referred to as a belly gun. It's is not intended to be used as a target or range pistol. As such, in my opinion, those trigger pulls, while varying over a fairly wide range, are not unacceptable for a belly gun. When you are confronted in a self defense scenario you get an adrenaline rush that restricts your manual dexterity and your span of focus. When you draw your gun to fire in self defense trigger pulls in that range will not make any difference. Almost everyone in those circumstances will have more than adequate strength to work the trigger. Self defense guns are generally made with stiffer trigger pulls just for the purpose of compensating for the adrenaline rush. The vast majority of defensive encounters occur at contact distances. You have neither time to aim or worry about proper technique. It's draw your gun if you can, point and shoot. So, from my perspective your gun meets the intended standard for its intended use. but, that's just me. If you are not personally satisfied, then call Customer Service and send it back in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 · (Edited)
I just figured out that my post got moved to the chronic complaint area, and I find that surprising. I sent just one post about my trigger-pull measurements asking if these were normal (and strongly suspecting they weren't). Suddenly, I'm double teamed by a moderator and a super moderator and my post is moved to the dead-complaint category.

Guys, I have only one PT709 so I have no basis of comparison. I wanted help deciding if I had a broken gun or not. Moderator Robby's response reads like "fix your own damn problem." Super Moderator BigSkiff reads like "What do you expect from a crappy little belly gun? Live with it." Maybe that's not what they intended but that's what I got.

If we can't use this forum to compare experience and share what we learn, what good is it?

I do think trigger pull variation between 3 and 10 pounds is excessive, but what do I know. I'm just a Taurus owner.
 

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I just figured out that my post got moved to the chronic complaint area, and I find that surprising. I sent just one post about my trigger-pull measurements asking if these were normal (and strongly suspecting they weren't). Suddenly, I'm double teamed by a moderator and a super moderator and my post is moved to the dead-complaint category.

Guys, I have only one PT709 so I have no basis of comparison. I wanted help deciding if I had a broken gun or not. Moderator Robby's response reads like "fix your own damn problem." Super Moderator BigSkiff reads like "What do you expect from a crap

If we can't use this forum to compare experience and share what we learn, what good is it?

I do think trigger pull variation between 3 and 10 pounds is excessive, but what do I know. I'm just a Taurus owner.








py little belly gun? Live with it." Maybe that's not what they intended but that's what I got.






I believe that the reason your post was moved is because the PROBLEM is chronic, not your post. I am also in the midst of trying to get a Taurus Slim to meet the Taurus specifications re trigger operation. It is back at Miami on their nickle for the 2nd attempt to get it right.
 

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Getting riled at the Moderators when they offer their insights will not help your trigger situation.

I suggest that you contact Taurus again and relate the situation to the operator who takes your call.
 
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I just figured out that my post got moved to the chronic complaint area, and I find that surprising. I sent just one post about my trigger-pull measurements asking if these were normal (and strongly suspecting they weren't). Suddenly, I'm double teamed by a moderator and a super moderator and my post is moved to the dead-complaint category.

Guys, I have only one PT709 so I have no basis of comparison. I wanted help deciding if I had a broken gun or not. Moderator Robby's response reads like "fix your own damn problem." Super Moderator BigSkiff reads like "What do you expect from a crappy little belly gun? Live with it." Maybe that's not what they intended but that's what I got.

If we can't use this forum to compare experience and share what we learn, what good is it?

I do think trigger pull variation between 3 and 10 pounds is excessive, but what do I know. I'm just a Taurus owner.
A bit touchy aren't we? I never said anything about crappy or live with it. The point I was making is that within the parameters of the guns design and intended use those trigger pulls are not unreasonable.

It's not a target pistol, it's not a range gun, it's not an offensive weapon, it's not intended to be a hunting weapon, it's a self defense pistol. That is my point. I never saw this thread until it was posted in the Complaints section. I read your post and I responded with a remark. If it wasn't what you wanted to hear, too bad! I didn't see anything in the post above that mentioned or asked others to compare there experiences with their guns to yours.

Further more, I suggested that if you are not happy with your gun to call Customer Service and send it back. No one is attacking you or your questions, we are just offer up an alternative perspective.

Lighten up!
 

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The 709 series are like other micro guns that they are designed for last ditch defense. Along with the large amount of .380's they are not designed for distances of over 3 to 4 yards. If your lucky or you practice with them they will be somewhat accurate to 7 to 10 yards.

Now to some of your quotes, Robby spends a great deal of his life at gun shows promoting your right to carry he is a vary decent man that does not have a disrespectful bone in his Body. To say he knows what he's talking about is a understatement. BigSkiff is a one of a kind professional that knows guns vary well and does not pull punches when confronted by someone that whines because they had a post moved to the complaints section. Which by the way is a place for the rest of us mods and members to help you before you do something you should not do. Its not punishment. Just another section. Some rant there some ask real questions that we can answer.

By the way the Mods here are picked for their expertise in certain areas. Some are ex law, ex Military, Long time CCW carrier's or people that have certain abilities that make this forum run well. We are all known to have many brands of guns and are not Taurus Kool Aid junkies. We call problems like it is. And have had problems with Taurus as well as other brands. We just share a love for a decent priced firearm, That being Taurus. I hope that answer's many questions as to the complaints section and the blatant lies and disrespect to several of the Mods.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
My apologies to Robby and BigSkiff. I guess I was expecting something else so I didn't recognize good advice when it was offered. I now realize these dedicated moderators spend a lot of their time and effort helping other Taurus owners and I was not being "part of the solution." It won't happen again.

Sincerely
Scott Ritchey
 

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My apologies to Robby and BigSkiff. I guess I was expecting something else so I didn't recognize good advice when it was offered. I now realize these dedicated moderators spend a lot of their time and effort helping other Taurus owners and I was not being "part of the solution." It won't happen again.

Sincerely
Scott Ritchey
It may sound like its not true, however, I try to not get my undies in a wad, when someone is upset over a gun they bought. They come here for help, and sometimes the typed words can be misread. I own several guns, which I just added back to my signature, so at least people will know I am not talking strictly thru my hat!!~:guns:

:cool:
 

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Not directed at anybody but in general: Typed communication is often misinterpreted. With out the face-to-face interaction which adds vocal tones and visual input, posts are often misconstrued. I've found it's best to read a post several times before responding half-cocked if I think I find something objectionable. Sometimes I'll read them over and over and decide that he didn't really mean what I thought I read. I find sometimes I interpret the post applying whatever frame of mind I'm in, when the author was no where near the same place.
 

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I'd like to close out this thread with the final diagnosis and correction results for my PT709 erratic trigger force problem. Before sending the gun to Taurus, I replaced the striker, the orange striker sleeve, and the striker spring. But the trigger force was still erratic.

I sent the gun to Taurus Miami ($75 shipping) with a detailed letter explaining my trigger force problem. I even mentioned that I suspected the sear spring as a likely cause. As an aside, the sear, sear spring, and the bracket that holds the sear are all restricted parts that Taurus will not sell to owners. I got the gun back in a couple weeks (good) with a new barrel, a new sear, a new trigger bar, and a new extractor, all according to the warranty repair ticket. However the erratic trigger force (randomly between 3 lb and 10+ lb) was not corrected (bad). The new trigger bar had a visibly longer "finger" to trip the sear; so the trigger functioned a little farther forward of the grip than before, this was a minor improvement. Also, when I used a laser boresighter in the chamber of the new barrel the dot now aligned with the sights; with the previous barrel the laser dot was high and right of the sights (the old chamber was probably misaligned with the bore). So the new barrel is an improvement. The old sear and extractor worked fine and so do the new ones so those seem a wash to me.

As I studied the sear action, I observed that the sear did not always return to the full up position when depressed and released. I still suspected a weak sear spring so I removed/disassembled the sear assembly and bent the spring (about 20 degrees) to increase the "up/forward" force on the sear. I am happy to report that the single action trigger force is now consistently 6.0 to 6.5 pounds over several dozen measurements. I suspect the weak spring force allowed the sear ears to land in various locations (instead of centering them in the notch) when the slide was racked (or fired), depending on the vibration/dynamics of the slide movement. Also, the greater sear spring up force overcomes some of the down force (on the sear ears) from the striker spring, which probably reduced trigger action friction.

Warning: In case anyone decides to disassemble the sear bracket assembly on their PT709 I have two cautions. First, there is a small 2-2.5 mm ball bearing under the safety lever to provide the detents for the safety lever. This ball bearing is under spring pressure and it is VERY easy to lose. Second, the sear spring is a pig to get back in during reassembly but there is a trick. Run a loop of thin dental floss through the coil of the sear spring and up through the slot in the top of the sear. Then you can use the floss loop to pull the spring into place as you slide the sear pin into place (through the bracket, through the sear side slots, and through the loop of the spring). But DON'T lose the sear spring or you'll have to send the whole gun to Miami to get it replaced.
 

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Disclaimer: I'm not a gunsmith, but I do have a head on my shoulders.

I agree with OP, that much variation in trigger pull is frightening. A 3 pound trigger is indeed unsafe on a CCW handgun, IMO, and that much variation on pull weight could be indicative of some greater issue inside the trigger mechanism of the "belly gun" which could lead to an accidental discharge--right into your own belly.

I've shot a Glock with a 3lb trigger--and it was a mighty frightening thing to reholster. Any bit of clothing or a wayward finger in the trigger guard means a bullet in the leg :)
 
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