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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been doing a lot of looking around on the web to see which 9mm ammo seems to have decent power and consistent expansion. Looks like the cor-bon +p dpx is really good stuff. Has anyone tried it in their 709? Any problems?
 

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I saw a gel test on it once, OK but not great. In 9mm there are better choices, 124gr +P nicely balances decent penetration with good velocity/muzzle energy. Speer's Gold Dot 124gr +P and Federal's HST 124gr +P are very good options, especially if you can get your hands on the 50 round boxes. There is also a short barrel optimized Gold Dot as well as a version made for extended water exposure, like if you decide you need to channel Sonny Crockett and live on a sailboat.

147gr is usually on the fence between sub and supersonic, the +P loading usually come in just over 1175 FPS (speed of sound at sea level). Many swear by Hornady's Critical Defense line, I personally have had nothing but problems in all my 9mm weapons. Remington Golden Sabre is an older design but still very effective, it's nicely priced too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Has the 709 had any problem with any of those +P loads? I have hornady CD in there right now (it seems to be the best non +P defense round). I have seen mentions of frame cracks on this forum and I have tried to do searches, but the search engine on this site doesn't seem to work very well...
 

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I've heard of various mechanical problems, but no cracked frames I'm aware of, and I read diligently every Slim problem posted here. Taurus recommends you use +P sparingly in their pistols.
 
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the 709 is built to take Plus p loads, the more you shoot them the less the life of the gun, springs etc that you can expect.
Now to each their own but i am not a big fan of plus p in any caliber, including the 9MM personally.
the 9MM in a standard pressure round delivers about 400 ft pounds of energy and has typically more than enough pentration , especially in the 124 grain weight, there are a boat load of new design projectiles that do a great job without added muzzle flash and muzzle jump, such as Hornady XTP, FTX, Speer gold dot, Gold dot short barrel.
the 9MM is a 9Mm is a 9mm if i wanted more power then i would get a more powerful round myself, like 40 cal, 357 sig, 38 super, 45 acp, 40 & W, 10 MM.
call me a sissy but i shoot a 92 grain projectile and its NOT a plus p round in all my 9MM's.
The key to all of it is does it function 120% of the time in your gun, can you place the projectile(s) in the target where you want them, everything else falls behind this.
A miss with a Plus p is still a miss.
 

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I will echo Olfarhors' comments. I have tried several types and grains of hollowpoints in my 709; all have shot fine with normal pressured ammo; also do not like +P ammo. I don't see a need for it, and I don't want to stress my handguns. I also like the Fiocchi 92 grain EMB ammo, and use it for my SD as well as Federal 124 HSP HST. I have posted some results of self-tests of some ammo under the ammunition subforum. If you haven't seen it, check out this very good technical guide on self defense ammo selection:

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
 
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I will echo Olfarhors' comments. I have tried several types and grains of hollowpoints in my 709; all have shot fine with normal pressured ammo; also do not like +P ammo. I don't see a need for it, and I don't want to stress my handguns. I also like the Fiocchi 92 grain EMB ammo, and use it for my SD as well as Federal 124 HSP HST. I have posted some results of self-tests of some ammo under the ammunition subforum. If you haven't seen it, check out this very good technical guide on self defense ammo selection:

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
An important point that gun manufacturer's should consider is the length of the barrel for "compact and subcompacts." It would be nice if they offered an option for a longer barrel.

The author of the article states:

BARREL LENGTH plays a role in this as well. While +P loadings may not be required in most cases, they can compensate for short barrels and the resulting loss in muzzle velocity. For example: In 9mm, the 124gr Gold Dot is a good choice in barrel lengths of 4" or more. In compact guns of 3.5" or less, a higher-velocity loading would be advised. This is Dr. Roberts take on the issue:
Actually, all our testing has traditionally been done in 4" barrels for 9 mm, .40 S&W, and 4.25" for .45 ACP, although recently most of the organizations we test for have been asking for 5" barrel data for .45 ACP. There is really no difference in performance between a 3.5" and 4" barrel in 9 mm and .40 S&W. In .45 ACP, we see a reasonably significant change in performance going from a 5" to 3.5" or less barrels. Since almost all viable pistols in 9 mm and .40 S&W use 3.5-4.5" barrels, there are no "short barrel" worries for serious end-users. Likewise, almost all .45 ACP platforms worthy of hard use use barrels greater than 4", so again, the short barrel question is moot...


Please be aware that if you venture into guns with a barrel length of less than 3.5", you're in uncharted territory.
 

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I think it's possible we can over-analyze this issue. The fact remains that if you are popping 9x19 ammo, you are launching a 115-147 grain projectile from a cartridge producing around 35,000 PSI chamber pressure, and usually resulting in somewhere around 1000-1100 FPS muzzle velocities. With short barrel pistols, you could do your own research with ballistic gelatin, but how much are you thinking about that in a close quarters self defense situation?

The fact remains that you should definitely be aware of what's behind your target, in case of over penetration, but the gist of the situation is you are trying to neutralize a threat. Whether that's with hardball ammo, which has killed many, many people from both aggressor and defender factions in wartime, or with any of the many self defense rounds, it comes down to those freaky, "condition black" seconds where you deploy your defense.

I think concentrating on shot placement, whether COM, or pelvic girdle, or even head shot if up close and accessible, is the key. It's more training than equipment.

Maybe.
 

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An important point that gun manufacturer's should consider is the length of the barrel for "compact and subcompacts." It would be nice if they offered an option for a longer barrel.

The author of the article states:

BARREL LENGTH plays a role in this as well. While +P loadings may not be required in most cases, they can compensate for short barrels and the resulting loss in muzzle velocity. For example: In 9mm, the 124gr Gold Dot is a good choice in barrel lengths of 4" or more. In compact guns of 3.5" or less, a higher-velocity loading would be advised. This is Dr. Roberts take on the issue:
Actually, all our testing has traditionally been done in 4" barrels for 9 mm, .40 S&W, and 4.25" for .45 ACP, although recently most of the organizations we test for have been asking for 5" barrel data for .45 ACP. There is really no difference in performance between a 3.5" and 4" barrel in 9 mm and .40 S&W. In .45 ACP, we see a reasonably significant change in performance going from a 5" to 3.5" or less barrels. Since almost all viable pistols in 9 mm and .40 S&W use 3.5-4.5" barrels, there are no "short barrel" worries for serious end-users. Likewise, almost all .45 ACP platforms worthy of hard use use barrels greater than 4", so again, the short barrel question is moot...


Please be aware that if you venture into guns with a barrel length of less than 3.5", you're in uncharted territory.
You and Bob are right on, +P loads in short barrels put a major strain on frames and recoil springs. Also, consider that a good portion of the "boost" of +P in a short barrel will likely end up detonating outside the barrel, meaning that instead of extra "push" on the bullet, you are going to get more flash and blast.
 

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While a Plus P ammo will yeild better velocity its not a even trade off, there are 2 main ways to achieve a higher operating pressure, either shorten the OAL of a cartridge or add more powder.
As shortening the cartridge really doesn't gain anything much other than higher pressure and danger, So then the manufactures give it more powder.
Now a standard velocity or even down loaded cartridge is never going to burn all the powder in the barrel, unless its a squibb!
so adding more powder is going to increase muzzle blast and jump more than its going to increase velocity, short barrel or long barrel.
If the powder is not still burning when the projectile leaves the muzzle then its slowing down in the barrel.
Now some so called fast burn powders do a better job of complete burn in the short barrel but none do a complete burn.
Modern designs and materials MAY be a better way of achieving good results instead of pushing the older projectiles at higher speeds.
and as for the FMJ , the only reason in modern times that it is used to kill in warfare is because it mandated that it be used.
it really doesn't matter much how much energy that a projectile has, its how much energy that it put IN the target.
In like designed projectiels the expanding point is always the winner with like shots and scenarios.
 

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An important point that gun manufacturer's should consider is the length of the barrel for "compact and subcompacts." It would be nice if they offered an option for a longer barrel.
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Well they usually do, its just a different model!
Guns in my opinion should be purchased with a use in mind.
' with that then a carry purpose pistol has that as its use.
typically carry pistols are short barreled, fixed sight,lightweight .
to offer a longer barrel then it would not really eb any of these things other than posisbly fixed sights.
I have a 24/7 C pro D/S thats got a 3.3 inch barrel, short grip frame, but I also got a 24/7 OSS D/S with a 5 .25 inch barrel, full sized grip frame, same gun different model and different purpose to me.
the standard 24/7 pro D/S with a 4 inch barrel is an attempt to be all things to all people!
You don;t buy a dump truck for gas mileage and you don't buy a Yugo to haul dirt in.
IF you want both buy a pick em up truck and learn its limitations.
 

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as far the whole long/short barrel argument ... actual muzzle velocities per inch... BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Home
+p does make the bullet go quicker, even w/ a 3 inch barrel
Sure it does.
it also increases recoil, muzzle jump, report and that ever popular "Blinding muzzle flash".
you get a lot more bang for your buck with a longer barrel if using Plus p.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Just read in my manual that it lists 9MM PARA 124gr. @ 1225 ft/sec. - thats 413 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. Assuming that, and checking the ballistics for 3" barrels at ballisticsbytheinch.com it looks like you can shoot most +p ammo and keep it under 413 ft.lbs. (I'd definitely stay away from the +p+ stuff as some of it would probably make more than 413 ft/lbs. even out of a 3" barrel.) My main concern was not wanting the break the gun. I'm not going to shoot much of the +p stuff, maybe just few to check reliability and get a feel for them, so I'm not concerned about wear. Thanks for the replies fellas!
 

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FYI- of course the gun is NOT designed for Plus P Plus ammo and will void the warranty.
don't confuse foot pounds of energy, Feet per second with pressure!
while they are intertwined they are not the same.
Plus p and plus p plus are pressure ratings and plus P plus hasn't got a exact pressure rating to my knowledge, being only somewhere above Plus P.
someone may want to correct me if I am wrong on this.
in any case Plus p plus is not designed for use in the 709 or any Taurus pistol to my knowledge..
hope this helps.
 

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To my knowledge, +P+ is not recommended in any Taurus firearm, but I might be mistaken. Definitely not the 700 series.
 

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The central problem with +P+ is that there is no SAAMI standard for it (SAAMI does not use a +P+ designation). So it could be anything, and no gun maker wants to write a blank check.
 
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