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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Well without getting into details....(well maybe just a few LOL) I have been posting a while here about a malfunctioned M650 that went back three times and was finally deemed "done" by the review board. I asked that it be replaced with a SS M85 and Taurus generously obliged (The price point being about the same). I figured the rudimentary Taurus revolver in the M85 will serve me well for CCW. Picked up the M85 after a little logistics game called "guess which FFL I sent your gun to?" With "Frank" who used to (he is no longer with the company) send the guns out for Taurus. The M85 after the first test trip to the range had multiple failures. The hand in the trigger assembly was not engaging with one of the slots on the star side of the ejector assembly therefore not advancing the cylinder into the cylinder stop causing barrel role and misfires. The recoil shield area was binding with some brands of bullets (Yes I clean, oil, and let the gun cool during range trips). The sear and or hammer was not machined precisely enough causing the sear spring to fall out. I sent the gun for an all expenses paid trip to Miami with a nice polite letter, not blaming, or finger pointing, simply explaining the exact issues and what I expected done. Two of those expectations in particular where please check for tolerance before and after the fix and test fire it. Please be respectful and try not to mar or damage the finish(I understand small stuff can happen).

I got the gun back quickly (10 days). They appeared to have repaired what I had diagnosed. The letter included simply stated; "trigger assembly misfire, replaced", "hammer assembly misfire, replaced". I excitedly took it out of the box. Put some snap caps in. The cylinder was fixed, it advanced and locked properly. The gun seemed to handle OK although it felt like there was allot of metal on metal rubbing and grinding inside, almost like there was sand in it. I thought maybe they test fired it and did not clean it. As I opened it up I noticed some gouges around the side plate area where it mates with the frame and one of the screws was fubared. Not excited by this. I opened it and I noticed the stock pin at the bottom of the grip area was missing (which I need for my combat grip). The inside was clean and a single coil of the firing pin spring fell out which was loose in there. After further inspection it was obvious probably no test firing happened. The new hammer assembly was machined like maybe Helen Keller hit it with a dremel after a few scotch and waters. Awful! I had ordered a new cylinder stop which arrived a day before the gun. I did not like the lock up of the original. I put this one in, a shiny new replacement, it would not even engage the cylinder(the molding was horific). The head space was still too tight, not close to the optimal .060ish. I was disgusted. I got out the file, the Meguires chrome wheel polish and the Dremel with a felt tool. I filed down a few areas around the hammer spur where it was rubbing badly. Then I polished some of the internals, most of the parts and lightly filed and polished the recoil shield back strap area. The action improved immensely. I essentially did what the factory should have done and finished the gun.

I am left with one issue which is the transfer bar. Every 10 to 15 trigger pull it will hang up on the bolt. On the way up it catches the bottom of the bolt. This is alleviated by reseting the trigger. However, this is a CCW gun and a rudimentary revolver. I cannot have a "I pulled the trigger and my transfer bar hung up" moment because in a stand off, gun fight, or whatever you want to call it: YOU DIE. I did not file or polish the transfer bar or bolt. This does not occur every trigger pull maybe every 10-15.

So far they owe me a cylinder stop and stock pin. Possibly a new transfer bar and bolt. I am pretty capable working on Taurus revolvers. I also take the time to make sure it's done right. I am very skeptical about sending it back. Not that I'm worried about CS. They are great. According to Christian one of the managers of CS, this last visit since this was my third malfunctioning Taurus revolver was supposed to have been overseen by the Review Board and the head gun smith. I am sorry but this repair was done in haste and was absolutely sub par. Anyone pulling the trigger on this gun, who knows anything about revolvers, should have been able to tell this thing was half fixed at best. For a professional gun smith, especially "the head gunsmith" calling this a sloppy fix is being nice. This falls out of the realm of my CS buddies (I have actually made some friends calling so often) I have to take it to the next level. I will call the first chance I get this week.

I am a little concerned about Taurus as awhole. Usually when a company is not doing well the first place you see it is in the quality of their products. Forjas Taurus S.A. had a hard year and a dismal 3q11 and 4q11 as well. Part of this was due to the weak dollar or valuation of the Real against North American currency and the effects of incorporating the debt from the acquisition of Polimetal Participacoes S.A. almost doubling long term debt increasing net financial expenses. Hopefully Taurus will see eventual ROI as a result of the acquisition in the near distant future. Also an increase in the production costs and costs of raw material.
Taurus : Relações com Investidores (See Forjas Taurus Website)

I have some inroads into Taurus Miami (who is owned by Forjas Taurus S.A.) and while they are going through some restructuring they are also laying off. Their budgets reflect the hardships of the Mother Ship. It would appear to me based on the firearms I have handled (subjective to revolvers), the design and engineering of the revolvers are sound. The metallurgy of the revolvers and Brazilian steel is a high quality. It does not appear they are doing any hand finishing of the revolvers in Brazil other than basic assembly. It is my belief that a 100% MIM manufactured revolver needs to be hand finished or at least thoroughly inspected for tolerances. They are sending revolvers from Brazil that are not finished and mass distributing them allowing Miami to clean up the malfunctioning fire arms. Miami is starting of lean for 2012. Some of their departments may be overwhelmed and under staffed. The advantage they are gaining in price point might be lost due to dissatisfied customers dropping their brand and the intangible cost of gaining a bad reputation for quality if they continue to distribute firearms(revolvers) with a higher percentage of malfunctions. Especially at a time when Ruger is equaling out on price point with some of their models and Smith is dropping some of their prices. You also have Charter Arms which seems to be doing better, rebounding from a fairly dismal track record. Companies like Bersa (Firestorm) and a few others introducing new revolver models. Tauruses approach of lowering cost through less QC prior to distributing product is going to cost them market share and exacerbate their previous fiscal year problems into 2012.
 

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I can only say WOW! Your results are not good at this point? I hope you are able to get this resolved soon.

Please keep us informed of the progress of your weapon.

I am not sure about the comments about company profits, and changes being made, but found your comments to be very interesting to say the least.
 

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Very sad to read this. You would think when replacing a known defective product for a customer, the replacement part would have been 100% quality tested to rebuild customer confidence.

The new CEO may have his work cut out for him.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I have been waiting for some parts that I mentioned in the previous post and I was dry firing the revolver tonight to see if maybe I could work out the binding. My OCD kicked in and I disassembled it for about the tenth time. I thought previously it was the transfer bar hanging up but I was wrong. I could clearly see this time it is the hand. It is hanging up as it gets pushed up into and through the frame housing as you pull the trigger. It is either getting hung up in the frame opening or on the ejector star assembly notches. The other possibly is the hand itself is out of tolerance. It will cycle for about 4-5 trigger pulls with a little metal on metal and then it gets stopped in its tracks as you pull the trigger. I gently buffed out the hand frame housing and buffed the hand with crocus cloth. It did not make a difference. So back to Miami it goes.

I really feel with what I have been through they should go into their inventory find one that actually works check the tolerances test fire it at-least twenty times and send it to me. We can all go on our merry ways. If they do decide to service it again the repair department will more than likely treat it like a yard rake again. I will gladly send it back to them yet again if this occurrs. I can play this game until the "cows come home" and or the logistics over head is more than the gun is worth. The solution is so simple, just get me a firearm that works like it should out of the box. We will all be happy like fat men at a Chinese buffet.
 

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I hate to see someone having the issues you are. My M85 is such a sweet little gun, I can't help but bring it out to play every time I go to the range. Not sure how many rounds I have put through it, but at least 1000 with absolutely no problems. I am certain that thousands of these guns are sold each year to very happy customers, sounds like you got a real lemon though. Based on my experiences, and those of others here, I know if you are patient and persistent, Taurus will take care of you to your satisfaction. Most of the time that is easy and quick - sounds like you may be one of the unlucky ones, but hang in there.
 

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It's going to get hard to "play that game till the cows come home" when the free shipping expires. Unless you have a 'cash cow.' I wish you Good luck with it.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I think I have a while James, this gun is going back for trip number 2 after taking delivery of it early last month January 2012, the cow doesn't get tapped until January 2013. It can only go back three times. Then they replace it. I'm pretty sure they want to fix it 100% this time. It is going to the review board again (review board = The manager from CS "Robert" and the manager from Repair). The other caveat is inside the frame has allot of slop; burrs, ridges, sharp lips and some over machining. If the frame is what is out of tolerance they may have to replace it. Like VTB said I am polite and patient with Taurus. I do hold them too their part of the deal though. Like I stated in my letter to them. "Just get me a gun out of the box, that is durable, reliable that I can use every day and trust my life with, and we are good to go", that's all. Hopefully they can use this situation as a spring board to refine some of their processes. I suggested to them maybe setting up a QC system where they not only clean and test fire the gun before it goes to the FFL but also check it for tolerances. Would probably save them a ton of over head and I'm sure the warranty work will still come in steady enough.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
My "go to" rep Lina x229(If anyone wants a god rep) got me my FedEx tag and the gun went out today. Will get there tomorrow. I spoke to Robert the Manager of CS. Gave him the serial number. He is on the review board. Asked if he could research the notes read my letter and make sure to oversee the process so they get it right this time. He assured me he will handle it. I have faith they will get me a good firearm this time. Good client relations, I am satisfied so far.
 

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Every now and then you will get a lemon, it's great that Taurus is willing to repair it for you. Want to hear about my Chevrolet Vega that used so much oil and smoked so bad that the Highway Patrol had it towed? Do you think Chevrolet fixed it no charge? Oh hell no.

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