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The Federal Premium HST Law Enforcement loads mentioned are generally considered excellent rounds, and easily meet or exceed the FBI Protocols for LE ammo. Notice the comments about "shot placement".

IMHO I think that it is a crock.

Pittsburgh Police to Take Look at Ammunition
Original source:
Pittsburgh police concerned about efficiency of ammunition | TribLIVE

Pittsburgh police concerned about efficiency of ammunition
About Margaret Harding
Pittsburgh Tribune-Review Staff Reporter Margaret Harding can be reached via e-mail or at 412-380-8519
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By Margaret Harding
Pittsburgh Tribune-Review

Published: Saturday, April 13, 2013, 12:01 a.m.
Updated 7 hours ago

Pittsburgh police will send samples of their ammunition for testing because officers worry about the bullets' stopping power.

“If there's an issue, which we don't think there is, we will make sure we change it,” Assistant Chief Maurita Bryant said Friday.

She said the problem could be where officers are hitting suspects.

Fraternal Order of Police Fort Pitt Lodge No. 1 first raised concerns over a shooting March 17 in which police said Dante Bonner, 18, fired at Officer Christopher Kertis even after the suspect was hit during a gun battle in East Liberty. Those concerns were heightened Thursday, when Officer Morgan Jenkins was critically injured in a shootout with a fleeing suspect in Homewood, identified by police as James Robert Hill, 24, of Homewood.

“Any time our officers fire at an individual and the individual is able to return fire, the officers are concerned with why,” Bryant said. “There's a lot of factors why.”

Officer Eric Engelhardt, chairman of the FOP's officer safety committee, said the union wants a review of the ammunition.

“We're going to look at it,” he said. “That's all we've said from the beginning.”

Police chose the Federal Premium Law Enforcement HST .40-caliber ammunition in 2008 based on an FBI comparison study.

“It comes down to shot placement,” said Officer John Lubawski, who oversees firearms training at the police academy. “There is no bullet out there that will cause an actor to immediately cease.”

Acting Chief Regina McDonald said Philadelphia police use the same ammunition. Police there did not return a message seeking comment.

Acting Cmdr. Kevin Kraus said Hill was able to return fire as police shot him as many as five times during the exchange about 1:30 a.m. Thursday near Chaucer Street in Homewood. The incident began when Hill, who was on the run from a halfway house for a year, fled from Jenkins and Officer Michelle Auge when they tried to stop his speeding vehicle. He crashed the car on Apple Street, and then fought with the officers.

Auge tried to use her Taser on Hill, but inadvertently spread the shock among the two officers and Hill, said Lt. Daniel Herrmann. She broke two fingers and fractured her orbital bone during the fight.

Hill ran away with Jenkins in pursuit. Hill fired multiple times at Jenkins, hitting him once in the left arm, Herrmann said. The bullet traveled into his chest, nicked his lung and stopped close to his spine, Herrmann said. Jenkins and Auge fired at Hill, but Herrmann would not say how many shots each fired.

Doctors removed the bullet from Jenkins' back; he remained in the intensive care unit in UPMC Presbyterian, said the police lieutenant.

“His spirits are well,” Herrmann said. “His family is thankful for all the response of the city of Pittsburgh.”

Hill is in serious but stable condition at Presby under police guard, Kraus said.

A police critical-incident review board, which includes three commanders, will look into the shooting to determine if the department should address any training issues or policy violations, McDonald said.

Margaret Harding is a staff writer for Trib Total Media. She can be reached at 412-380-8519 or [email protected].
 

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Gee, you mean shot placement might be important? :icon_rolleyes: I thought that was what 18 round mags were for, pure spray and pray. :shooter:

Truth be told, a 22 LR would be sufficient if more emphasis were put on shot placement.
 

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First let me say this, I live in Pittsburgh and the City Police and the Mayor are in deep doo doo right now. The Mayor is not running for the next term. There have been a lot of expenses that were used for personal use.....there have been 2 acting chiefs of police....they are reeling right now. Now this just adds to the confusion. :( I'm glad I live in the suburbs.
 

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What, I thought my .40 would instantly stop a bad guy even if I shoot him in the hand!!!??? ... So now I have to practice also!? But I bought those zombie bullets, and they are supposed to blow heads off!

<extreme sarcasm>

CF
 

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If you want a round that will stop a person with one round, if it hits the torso, go with

If you can't do that, the train your Officers to take the time to be more accurate. "My rifle and I know that what counts in war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, or the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit."

Any Officers that complain about the amount of training time required to be able to put rounds on target under stress probably should have become an accountant. Just my opinion, and opinions are like elbows.
 

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My brother was a Kansas City, Mo. policeman. In that department at least if an officer decides to pull the trigger he is trained to hit center mass. They will not try to wound you, take your knee cap off or the like... they will shoot to kill you.

An incident in Brownsville, Tx while we were there a couple of years ago involved a high school student - in the school with a fake gun that looked like a Glock. He refused to put the gun down and the Brownsville police officer, not knowing the gun was not real shot him center mass. A public outcry ensued because the boy was killed. The policeman did exactly what he was trained to do. The Texas Rangers cleared the officer of any wrong doing.

Perhaps the Pittsburgh police need to go to training school.

Or maybe they can issue the department some of these

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57771_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y
 
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In my Texas CHL class we are told to shoot center mass. And should you have double tapped the aggressor, you simple explain that after one shot he kept advancing and you fired to stop the aggressor from his intent of killing you.
 

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All of my .40S&W personal protection rounds state clearly on the box....Double taps recommended to maximize stopping power.
Just kiddin.
Strange, mine say "Keep pulling trigger until magazine is empty". :)


I don't think that they've invented a bullet yet that will knock someone down and out with a near miss.
 

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This whole thing is funny, because the 40 cal is a direct result of the search 20 years ago to find a better stopper than the (at the time) underpowered 147 grain 9mm. They initially came out with the 10mm, which was pretty stout, then trimmed it down to the 40 cal. Its the same stopper as it was when they invented it - not too shabby.
 

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Now if B.U.T.T was around we would not even be talking about anything but a 45 and thats what God created after the 10 commandments. And if any one said anything about a 9 sillymeter they would have caught all kinds of trouble. So in memory of one of our best Mods ever Chuck Sultive AKA Big Ugly Tall Texan ( BUTT) there is no round for self defense but a 45!!! you got that maggots!!!!!!
 

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I've heard derisive comments about the 40 S&W (Short & Weak) for quite awhile. Since the FBI Tactical Response Teams are armed with 45 ACPs in the J Moses B given 1911, it would seem the Pittsburgh PD isn't the first department to doubt the effectiveness of the round.
 

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... Police chose the Federal Premium Law Enforcement HST .40-caliber ammunition in 2008 based on an FBI comparison study.

“It comes down to shot placement,” said Officer John Lubawski, who oversees firearms training at the police academy. “There is no bullet out there that will cause an actor to immediately cease.” ...
"The Union's going to check these bullets out". The problem is that the cops used Tasers rather than shooting this guy while he was within arms length from them. Then they followed up with the hand guns they were given, which they can't shoot straight with anyways. I remember the shooting in NY recently when two cops shot up a load of civilians in their effort to shoot one gun man. Seems to me maybe the cops ought to listen to "ol Joe Biden" and use a shotgun. If they do they might actually hit something. WARNING to ALL CIVILIANS: HIT THE DIRT WHEN COPS START SHOOTING.
 

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This whole thing is funny, because the 40 cal is a direct result of the search 20 years ago to find a better stopper than the (at the time) underpowered 147 grain 9mm. They initially came out with the 10mm, which was pretty stout, then trimmed it down to the 40 cal. Its the same stopper as it was when they invented it - not too shabby.
And the irony is that the original .40 S&W load (180gr bullet doing 900-950fps from a pistol) was a ballistic twin of the black powder .38WCF fired from a similar barrel length! The only real difference was the .38-40 was using a .401" diameter LEAD bullet and the .40S&W was using a .400" JACKETED one.

All they did was figure out how to do it in a shorter rimless cartridge that was semi auto friendly.

I know there's some LEO's around here, so ya'll don't take this the wrong way because I have the utmost respect for anyone in Law Enforcement.

The sad truth is that most cops I've been on the range with can't shoot worth a crap. I'm a middle of the pack shooter (seriously, I shot a match one time that had 7 entrants- I finished 4th) but even I'm faster and, especially, more accurate than about 80% of the LEO's I've been on the range with. I've shot with some LEO's that are fantastic shooters but there's a whole bunch out there can barely make the gun function and keep it relatively well maintained. And that's under very relaxed range conditions. I fear for several of them if they have to shoot under duress.
 

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First let me say this, I live in Pittsburgh and the City Police and the Mayor are in deep doo doo right now. The Mayor is not running for the next term. There have been a lot of expenses that were used for personal use.....there have been 2 acting chiefs of police....they are reeling right now. Now this just adds to the confusion. :( I'm glad I live in the suburbs.
I live in the city limits and its true about the corruption. The police chief was forced to resign because he's under Federal indictment and will most likely see prison time. BTW, our Mayor is on Bloombergs list of moron mayors against guns. The union president is most likely using the ammo as an excuse for poor training or something else altogether. I have friends who are patrolmen and 1 is a homicide detective and they are burned out and claim that moral has never been lower. These men and women have a tough and dangerous job that's getting riskier by the day what the with gang and drug culture. We are taxed out whazoo here and these officers should have the best tools and training they can get because after all, they are forced to live in the city to maintain their employment.
 

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If the suspect is high on meth or crack.. You can blow their dang fool head off.. They'll keep coming... Adrenaline can have the same effect.. Fight or flight.. Shoot them right in the brain or right in the heart.. They Can keep coming..

And there are stronger synthetic drugs being produced... Mixing heroine, meth , crack, and E... People are popping pills that shoot their bodies straight off the deep end.. Minds too... Its getting damn scary folks...
 
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