Taurus Firearm Forum banner

1 - 20 of 101 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,530 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Maybe this has been posted, but it was new to me, and sounds like sound logic to me. I'll have to think about this data, but I might start carrying 158gr SWC in my .38spcls, based on penetration, low recoil, and low muzzle flash. These factors may now be more important to me than expansion. Good food for thought either way.

http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,449 Posts
For my way of thinking, a good combination of both is best.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,513 Posts
Penetration is great, but expansion is important also. In most cases, it won't really matter about either. If you get rounds on the target quickly and in the right places(even with FMJ) the threat will most likely be taken care of. Nobody wants to get shot.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,449 Posts
​But you don't want to over-penetrate and hit some innocent victim.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
35,169 Posts
The tricky part is, developing a cartridge that expands fully, yet penetrates sufficiently to make it to vital organs. And, some cartridges (357 magnum, for example) have a reputation for over-penetration, and anytime the person standing behind the target is hit, it makes for a very bad day.

The good news is, today's cartridges have a lot of science behind them, and most self defense ammo made today are a pretty good combination of both.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,481 Posts
​But you don't want to over-penetrate and hit some innocent victim.
If you are relying on bullet expantion to protect what is beyond your target a review of your tactics and equipment may be in order.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,681 Posts
I have never gotten excited over all the claims of the super expanding/fragmenting bullets made from all the major ammo companies. I still believe in large calibers, heavy bullets for leaving large holes and doing more damage from penetration than a bullet that expands to make a large but shallow wound which may not affect vital organs or break bones. If over penetration is your main concern then by all means use the lightest expanding/fragmenting bullets you can find. I'll stay with the heavier flat nose or SWC type lead bullets from a large caliber handgun.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheOldRedneck

·
Registered
Joined
·
36,101 Posts
having seen more than a few gun shot victims and scenes from shootings myself I consider over penetration before under penetration.
The amount of penetration even very medium sized calibers can have is quite amazing.
Other than the designer fragmenting projectiles I have seen used (actually not read about) very few calibers that did not have enough penetration.
calibers like 22, 25 an even 32 short comes to mind.
but the 9MM / and up seem to find a way of getting through the body quite well usually.
Tactics as mentioned should be planned ahead of time, I don't carry a single shot pistol for protection so if its sill standing and moving it gets another shot or two.
I like a fast light-medium weight modern expanding projectile myself what you use is your choice.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
39,497 Posts
When thinking about over or under penetration, and complete pass through, keep in mind that a bullet that stays in it's target, has expended all it's energy in that target. Not so with one continuing down range.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
15,276 Posts
How deep in the average chest is the heart?

Answer:

In Cardiovascular Health

How deep is it from the chest to the heart?




2.25"

Now, why do you need a round that will penetrate 12 to 18 inches as per the FBI? You only need to go 3 inches and you are in the heart and if you miss the heart another inch or two and you are well inside the lungs. So, with that, you only need a bullet that will penetrate 5 to 6 inches in reality; expending all its energy in that distance.

I prefer a large caliber heavy HP bullet; I use nothing less than a 200 gr. HP in .45ACP. I have no concerns about its ability to stop the attack or it going through the BG. Other calibers out there can do the same I am sure, but this is just my preference on caliber and weight. ....Just saying.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,085 Posts
Side note: ballistic gel is a good test medium when used properly. The penetration in this very uniform material is used as a gauge for projectile penetration and expansion.

It it is not a 1:1 match for human or animal flesh, bones, clothing, etc.

*stating the obvious?!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,681 Posts
I guess a perfect bullet would be one that expand to three times is diameter and penetrated to the skin on the opposite side of its target. Good Luck finding one. I have to look at the large game I've killed such as hogs, deer and a few Black Bear back when I hunted them. All of the one shot DRT kills were with either a 45-70, 44 Mag or 45 Colt loaded with heavy lead bullet with wide metplates. I have killed plenty with the 30 30, 243 and 308 using JHP & SP bullets but not as cleanly as the larger calibers.

There was a study posted on TA some time back which showed penetration results of most popular caliber handguns and 223/5.56 rifles. Of course FMJ round penetrated the most and most over penetrated but a lot of the HP/SP round including some of the newer SD rounds did not give adequate penetration to ensure incapacitation. I think I remember them saying that 10 to 12 inches of penetration was needed to incapacitate most humans.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheOldRedneck

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,955 Posts
Maybe this has been posted, but it was new to me, and sounds like sound logic to me. I'll have to think about this data, but I might start carrying 158gr SWC in my .38spcls, based on penetration, low recoil, and low muzzle flash. These factors may now be more important to me than expansion. Good food for thought either way.

http://gundata.org/images/fbi-handgun-ballistics.pdf

All would depend what you are useing that round for, Deer hunting or self defense. I went deer hunting this year with my Rossi R97206 .357 magnum and I wanted it to make a big hole in, out and break bones traveling through. That is not something that can be accomplished with a 9mm hollow point SD round.


Hunter 2.gif
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheOldRedneck

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,085 Posts

All would depend what you are useing that round for, Deer hunting or self defense. I went deer hunting this year with my Rossi R97206 .357 magnum and I wanted it to make a big hole in, out and break bones traveling through. That is not something that can be accomplished with a 9mm hollow point SD round.


View attachment 103903
Well - the big hole in is only going to be .002" than a 9mm (.355"). What bullet were you using on the hunt?! Commercial or hand load?! :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,449 Posts
How deep in the average chest is the heart?

Answer:

In Cardiovascular Health

How deep is it from the chest to the heart?




2.25"

Now, why do you need a round that will penetrate 12 to 18 inches as per the FBI? You only need to go 3 inches and you are in the heart and if you miss the heart another inch or two and you are well inside the lungs. So, with that, you only need a bullet that will penetrate 5 to 6 inches in reality; expending all its energy in that distance.

I prefer a large caliber heavy HP bullet; I use nothing less than a 200 gr. HP in .45ACP. I have no concerns about its ability to stop the attack or it going through the BG. Other calibers out there can do the same I am sure, but this is just my preference on caliber and weight. ....Just saying.

I see where you are coming from, but in regard to your question of a bullet round that will penetrate 12 to 18 inches, there are a lot of other things to put into consideration like clothing, profile, body size, bones, glass, wood, metal, etc. In a self-defense situation, you may not be shooting an attacker who is face-to-face, skinny built, and with only a t-shirt. They could be overweight (like myself) and wearing a winter jacket.

There is a fine line between enough penetration and too much. Now I am one who has never needed to point a firearm at a human being (and hope never to), let alone shoot one. So I am only speaking from reading. And I respect all opinions on this topic, and wish to learn more.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,955 Posts
Well - the big hole in is only going to be .002" than a 9mm (.355"). What bullet were you using on the hunt?! Commercial or hand load?! :D
Once fired S&B brass, CCI small pistol magnum primers, Hornady 158 grain flat nose soft point with 14.2 grains Alliant 2400 = Meat on the table....

HPIM2279.JPG
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,085 Posts


12" to heart + bone




12" to heart + bone, glass, clothing, ??
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20,085 Posts
Once fired S&B brass, CCI small pistol magnum primers, Hornady 158 grain flat nose soft point with 14.2 grains Alliant 2400 = Meat on the table....

View attachment 103905
Nice! But - you had an exit wound with a pistol soft point?! Lung shot?
 
1 - 20 of 101 Posts
Top