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Howdy all,

I noticed Beretta's Tomcat mousegun which is a .32 in the size of a .25. Unfortunately, there have been problems with that model, including frame cracking. That got me thinking about the .25, which Taurus manufactures.

Assuming center of mass shot(s), how many .25's would it take to equal 1 .32 for stopping power?

Thanks,

-curiousge5
 

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Without me thinking too hard, the .25 ACP is about like a .22 LR at best as far as "stopping power" if I recall correctly. Personally, I'd pick a .32 ACP over the .25 ACP and a .22LR over a .25 ACP if I were looking at those calibers.

Here's some things to look over about those calibers.

.22 LR
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/22.html
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/22LRHandgun.htm
http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/22lr/gel22lr.htm

.25 ACP
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .25 Auto Results
Ballistics by the inch
.25ACP

.32 ACP
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: .32 Auto Results
Ballistics by the inch
.32ACP
GoldenLoki.com


 

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A .24 ACP puts out about 64 ft/lbs. of force from the muzzle while a .32 ACP puts out 129 ft/lbs. of force at the muzzle. So essentially a .32 puts out double what a .25 ACP is capable of. Here's a link to the site I normally refer to for the average performance numbers of just about any ammunition available. This isn't taking into account +P loads and lighter projectiles, it's more so for the average load data for "normal" or "usual" consumer ammunition.
 

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While a .22 may look good, we all see the complaints of duds on these pages. Pistols usually have even less force striking the rim than rifles.

The .25 ACP is another cartridge limited by the pressures SAAMI uses, due to the older, less properly made guns available in it.

Ballistics101.com lists the .25 ACP ammo as ranging from 64 ft/lb to 150 ft/lb. In between are rounds such as these

Glaser, a 34 gr. bullet at 1100 fps, for 94 ft/lb.

Hornady XTP, a 35 gr. JHP at 900 fps, for 63 ft/lbs.

Fiocchi FMJ. a 50 gr. at 800 fps, for 71 ft/lbs.

These aren't all specialty loadings, so the "twice the power of .32 ACP" isn't true. MagTech, Hornady, and Fiocchi FMJ loads all run in the 71-75 ft/lb range. In a pistol, the .22 lr is going to have a hard time matching them.

FYI, the frame cracking of the 3032 was exclusively in the blued steel versions. Buy a Stainless 3032, and go on with it.
 

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Let's attack this from another angle. I own both Taurus PT-22 and a group of .32 ACP pistols. The .32s I have go from Beretta pocket size to compact CZ83 and Taurus PT132s.

The data below is old, not that old, but gives one a guide as to what the cartridge is capable of.
The data is from Handloads.com.
22 Long RifleTop Loads10 mm22 Long Rifle223 Remington25 ACP30 Carbine30-30308 Winchester32 ACP357 Magnum357 SIG38 Special38 Special +P38 Special +P+380 ACP40 S&W41 Magnum44 Magnum44 Special45 ACP45 ACP +P45 Colt9 mm9 mm +P9 mm +P+
All All

22 Long Rifle Stopping Power, all bullet weights
Brand Bullet Shootings One Shot Stops Percent Diameter Penetration Notes
Quik Shok HP 10 4 40% 0" 6.7"
CCI Stinger HP 465 178 38% 0.28" 7.3"
Winchester HP 654 196 30% 0.29" 9.6"
Federal HP 722 214 30% 0.26" 8.8"
Remington HP 988 296 29% 0.25" 9.1"
Winchester Solid 1644 348 21% 0.22" 11.8"
6 loads


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BT = Black Talon GS = Golden Saber GD = Gold Dot
HS = Hydra Shok ST = Silvertip LRN = Lead Round Nose
SWC = Semi Wadcutter JHP = Jacketed Hollow Point FMJ = Full Metal Jacket

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Diameter and Penetration are the average from bullets recovered in actual shootings. All data taken from Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow's book: Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition and used with permission from the author.


25 ACP Stopping Power, all bullet weights
Brand Bullet Shootings One Shot Stops Percent Diameter Penetration Notes
Winchester Expanding Point 204 55 27% 0.3" 8.9"
Winchester FMJ 2804 673 24% 0.25" 10.4"
Remington FMJ 2221 511 23% 0.25" 10.9"
3 loads
99 66% 0.41" 9.2"
Federal HS 23 14 61% 0.44" 9.3"
CCI GD 10 6 60% 0.42" 9.9"
Winchester FMJ 203 99 49% 0.32" 11.1"
4 loads
The .38 Special rounds are for standard pressure rounds.
38 Special Stopping Power, all bullet weights
Brand Bullet Shootings One Shot Stops Percent Diameter Penetration Notes
Federal 129 gr HS 77 50 65% 0.56" 10.2" 2" revolver
Federal 125 gr Nyclad 46 29 63% 0.56" 10.4" 2" revolver
Federal 158 gr LRN 421 208 49% 0.357" 17.1" 2" revolver
Federal 158 gr LRN 592 288 47% 0.357" 17.1" 4" revolver

I can make the case for the .32 ACP and have. Part of it has to do with having a longer barrel for the cartridge, but the .32s are no slouch with premium self defense ammo that is out there.

Yes, I do own Beretta Tomcat. Mine is blued and has had no problems. I also own a NAA Guardian in .32ACP. A Taurus 732 is in the fold also.

There are .32 ACP loads that approach or do as well as the standard .38 Special rounds. That's nothing to sneeze at.
No, it's not a power house. It is better than the .25ACP at most levels if not all of them. That's with paper ballistics aside,too.
 

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I'd go with the .32 acp as well for what the others have said.

But I'm also biased, the first semi auto I ever fired when I was growing up was a .32 acp....
 

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Howdy all,

I noticed Beretta's Tomcat mousegun which is a .32 in the size of a .25. Unfortunately, there have been problems with that model, including frame cracking. That got me thinking about the .25, which Taurus manufactures.
Assuming center of mass shot(s), how many .25's would it take to equal 1 .32 for stopping power?
Thanks,
-curiousge5
well lots of info to support many different conclusions!
my persoanl opinion and this is from 32 years of fire service in bad areas of a major City where shootings involving 25 auto, 22 revolver and auto , and 32 revolver and auto wounds.
Simply cutting through the bull the 25 isn;t worth much as a self defense caliber, yea people say well its better than having a sharp stick or slingshot!
i am not sure and close up might take the sharp stick.
Now don't get me wrong I think all three are not the best choice in a small gun but i would definitely go 32 all the way if i had to make a choice.
some of the newer designed self defense rounds have made it a much better caliber than a few years back.
The biggest problem that i have 22 VS 25 is that rimfires are simply not as reliable in the ammunition function as centerfire, but if a choice between the 22 and the 25 would likely go the 22, plus ammo is cheap enough to practice with.
 
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thanks olfarhors, i'm getting my laughs in today on this forum. the .25acp really has to be one of the worst cartridges ever designed, effectiveness vs. cost. i would take .22lr over the .25 anyday.
 

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thanks olfarhors, i'm getting my laughs in today on this forum. the .25acp really has to be one of the worst cartridges ever designed, effectiveness vs. cost. i would take .22lr over the .25 anyday.
well 2 things that i figured out after much observation of what people do to themselves and to other humans!
1) how easy it is to kill a human being.
2) how hard it is to kill a human being.
about the time that you see something and say well they are a goner, they are alive, about the time you say well this ain't much, they are dead as a doornail.
one thing that i always remember though is the 2 women that shot thier husband/boyfriend at point blank range with a 25 auto and ended up dead , one by strangulation and one by stab wounds.
one guy was shot 7 times up the middle back near the spine as he ran out the door, only to return, the other was shot 5-6 times in the frontal area, i don't remember exactly how many but several, that was facing the wife/girlfrind and walked across the room and picked up a knife out of the sink and stabbed her about 20 times.
that made a beleiver on the 25 auto.
if there is a POSTER CHILD for lack of penetration the 25 auto is likely it.
have I seen people killed with the 25? oh yea, but i have seen people killed with about every tool made by man and some that were made by God!
 

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My wife has carried a Beretta Tomcat 32 since 1996. Never ever any issues. She will not even consider any other gun. Both of us have put many rounds through that gun.
I would not hesitate to recommend the Beretta Tomcat or the 32 acp caliber a a personal defense round. Personally I prefer a bigger round.
I would never consider a 25.
If hard pressed, I would go with the 22-but it would have to cycle the ammo without fail. The 22 is notorious for not running the rounds.
 

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What I've noticed in the lasst few years is that the rimfire rounds actually have had a good record without duds. At least for me.

The PT-22s have gobbled up their accuracy and function rounds with aplomb.
 

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While something in 380 or bigger is preferred a well placed 22 can produce a well scrambled brain. I recall years ago hearing of a guy in Des Moines, IA. who got shot in the head and although he lived (in a vegetative state) the doctors said that that there was not one area of the brain that wasn't damaged after that little 22 got done bouncing around inside of his skull!

A .25 ACP just don't have the power in my humble opinion.

I have to admit the wife bought a SST Bauer .25 and it is a nice looking curio, and it is small enough to hide in a thong!!!! LOL
 

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IMHO the .25 is a perfect choice for those who cannot deal with the massive recoil and power of the .22LR.

Most 'experts' would agree that the .380 is a rather marginal SD choice, so by inference any caliber smaller than that is simply not a good first choice or recommendation, generally speaking. There are obvious exceptions, especially those who are aged and infirm or otherwise physically or emotionally unable to handle a larger centerfire's recoil. For those folks any caliber firearm is better protection than a pointed stick or banana.
 
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James Bond always did quite well with his .25 caliber Beretta and could hits the hairs on a gnats butt at 10 yards....how can you sneeze at that? ;) And don't forget your gun metal steel cigarette case for body armor! :D A friend of mine in 1969 found his wife's .25 auto was quite capable of shooting himself in the tibia and shattering it and having to wear a leg cast for about 4 months, he did so while setting on the throne. Definitely took the fight and ability to run out of him!
 

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We always talk as though we only fought drug-crazed, weight-lifting, 250 pound, martial artists. The reality of the matter is that the presentation of a gun, any gun, often ends the problem. I have never seen anyone in real life who, in the midst of an armed confrontation, is going to be able to identify the caliber, or the load, in their opponents hands.

.22 long rifle cartridges plainly suck as far as reliable ignition goes. While we consider a day's worth of plinking, say, a couple of bricks worth, a success if only a dozen rounds misfire, we'd be having conniptions if our self-defense load in center-fire did the same. The same with rim-fire loads that produce squibs, hang-fires, or FTEs.

The single advantage of the little .25 ACP is that it's stone reliable in ignition. Remember, the .25 ACP was developed as a vest-pocket caliber in 1905. Back then, medicine was hardly up to today's standards, and holes in one's body were often fatal. Nobody wanted to be shot. Still don't.

Like many other obsolete cartridges, development stopped on them decades ago. However, it's funny that we extoll the virtues of the notoriously unreliable .22 Rim-fire rounds, but routinely talk about how weak the .32 S&W Long, or the .38 S&W are. Barrel length has a bit in play here, as well. I noticed that most .32 ACP ballistics are taken using 3.5-4" barrels, as are the rim-fires. The .25 ACP barrels used are from 2-2.5" barrels.

The .32 S&W Long, using a 98 gr. target loading, from a 4" barrel, go 705 fps, for 115 ft/lbs.

The .38 S&W, using a 148 gr. RNL, from a 4" barrel, go 655 fps, for 150 ft/lbs.

The .32 ACP, using a 60 gr. JHP, from the usual 4" barrel, runs at 970 fps, for a grand energy of 125 ft/lbs.

This begs the question, then, of why we consider the .22 Long Rifle a viable self-defense cartridge from a 2" barrel, while denigrating several other cartridges as weak and useless, that are MUCH more powerful. Heck, the nearly 135 year-old .38 S&W still packs MORE energy than the modern, high performance, .32 ACP loading. This from a legacy loading that more nearly equates to it's Black Powder origins.

Against the usual unarmored, within seven FEET, in near-darkness, and presenting with a frontal shot, bad guy civilians face, anything that creates more than 53ft/lbs of energy upon impact will serve.

This is taken from a ballistics site, and specifically tests three varieties of .22 lr against the .25 ACP. The results are interesting, and put to rest the "advantage of the .22". Check out statement four.

"Stinger demonstrated slightly superior penetration performance than Viper. Stinger's penetration performance is marginal at best, but it's probably the best choice for a small 2 1/2-inch automatic pistol.

Viper is probably a better choice for handguns with barrel lengths between 3- and 6-inches, because if Stinger is used, and it expands, it might not penetrate deeply enough to reach vitals. This is not a concern with Viper. When fired from a longer barrel, the increased velocity will permit Viper to penetrate deeper than Stinger.

Quik-Shok is intriguing, but its use as a personal defense cartridge is not recommended, based on its shallow penetration and mild wound trauma.

Many people have the mistaken belief that a 2 1/2-inch handgun chambered to fire the .22 Long Rifle cartridge is superior to a 2 1/2-inch handgun chambered to fire the .25 ACP cartridge. These tests show that when you fire .22 LR from a .25 ACP sized handgun, you should expect nothing better than .25 ACP-like performance. When fired from small handguns, .22 LR is virtually identical in performance to .25 ACP.

We like to think of small automatics chambered in .22 LR, .25 ACP and .32 ACP as "shoot and scoot" guns. They're best used as a means to escape deadly danger. They're not gunfight guns.

Finally, the Beretta M21A, chambered to fire .22 LR, is not a good choice as a personal defense handgun. The reason is because the Beretta does not have an extractor. When a cartridge misfires, the firing pin swages the rim of the cartridge to the breech, and the faulty cartridge must be either pried from the chamber with the blade of a knife or removed by inserting a cleaning rod down the bore. If you're considering the Beretta M21A pistol as a personal defense weapon, we feel you'd be better served by choosing one that's chambered to fire .25 ACP.

If you're contemplating .22 LR as a personal defense cartridge, we advise you to consider a revolver instead of an automatic pistol. Rimfire ammunition has a higher incidence of misfire failures than centerfire ammunition. With a revolver, when a misfire is encountered, the problem is solved immediately by pressing the trigger again.

This is taken from the Firearms Tactical Institute literature.
 

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For some reason I've always wanted to try reloading the .25 ACP. Fortunately I don't own one.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
While a .22 may look good, we all see the complaints of duds on these pages. Pistols usually have even less force striking the rim than rifles.

The .25 ACP is another cartridge limited by the pressures SAAMI uses, due to the older, less properly made guns available in it.

Ballistics101.com lists the .25 ACP ammo as ranging from 64 ft/lb to 150 ft/lb. In between are rounds such as these

Glaser, a 34 gr. bullet at 1100 fps, for 94 ft/lb.

Hornady XTP, a 35 gr. JHP at 900 fps, for 63 ft/lbs.

Fiocchi FMJ. a 50 gr. at 800 fps, for 71 ft/lbs.

These aren't all specialty loadings, so the "twice the power of .32 ACP" isn't true. MagTech, Hornady, and Fiocchi FMJ loads all run in the 71-75 ft/lb range. In a pistol, the .22 lr is going to have a hard time matching them.

FYI, the frame cracking of the 3032 was exclusively in the blued steel versions. Buy a Stainless 3032, and go on with it.

Magtech's FMJ at 87 ft/lbs looks good. My guess is those lighter/faster loads don't have enough penetration.

Since SAAMI bases pressures on the older guns, they need to come up with pressures for newer guns. Also keep a pressure for older guns, though.

I read of frame cracking with stainless (or is it Inox?) too. Maybe they were running hot loads.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
well lots of info to support many different conclusions!
my persoanl opinion and this is from 32 years of fire service in bad areas of a major City where shootings involving 25 auto, 22 revolver and auto , and 32 revolver and auto wounds.
Simply cutting through the bull the 25 isn;t worth much as a self defense caliber, yea people say well its better than having a sharp stick or slingshot!
i am not sure and close up might take the sharp stick.
Now don't get me wrong I think all three are not the best choice in a small gun but i would definitely go 32 all the way if i had to make a choice.
some of the newer designed self defense rounds have made it a much better caliber than a few years back.
The biggest problem that i have 22 VS 25 is that rimfires are simply not as reliable in the ammunition function as centerfire, but if a choice between the 22 and the 25 would likely go the 22, plus ammo is cheap enough to practice with.
I wonder how much difference the extra 20-25 ft./lbs the Magtech FMJ would make a difference.

Incidentally, my thoughts come from considering a BUG or when extremely small is necessary for whatever reason.
 
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