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While it is easy to be an armchair commando and break down a past event one must remember that you have to react to the event as it unfolds.
Certain rules apply universally:
1- it will be a surprise to you
2- most of the training and skills you think you have will get erased by adrenaline. The John Mcclane you think you are will likely become the Deputy Fife.
3- cover and concealment are key to surviving and possibly allowing yourself the opportunity to stop it.
4- if someone says drop your weapon- do it. Police will warn, bad guys won't and in that situation any non compliance is likely a death sentence.
5- Pray you're not in that type of situation!
 

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For those off us that practice drawing and feel we are good enough.
I read an article from a major Magazine and they discussed a drill I thought would be good for all of us.

Take a regular 3 x 5 card place it at 7 yards then place a 8" black circle next to it.

Put 2 rounds in your gun and 4 rounds in your spare Magazine. Draw from your normal concealment and put 2 in the card drop your mag and reload then put 4 rounds in the black circle.
Do this in under 8 seconds!

This is from a guy that teaches real world training.

I was at the mall again with my grandkids what a nightmare of a gun free zone. The mall was packed and everyone was an easy target.

Home invasions are up and the bad guys are hitting neighborhoods late at night. They are dropped off and run down the street and go for unlocked cars and open or unlocked garages.
People are leaving loaded guns in their cars. WHAT!

We are seeing road rage shootings on the highway everyday. You can no longer drive without worrying about being shot!

Which I find insane. I'm always armed while inside my home and wherever it's legal.

Law enforcement are almost useless and can't or won't shoot back. There's videos everyday where LEO are beaten or shot by mobs and nothing happens.

I have nothing to say but I fear for our lives everyday!

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
While it is easy to be an armchair commando and break down a past event one must remember that you have to react to the event as it unfolds.

Certain rules apply universally:
1- it will be a surprise to you
2- most of the training and skills you think you have will get erased by adrenaline. The John Mcclane you think you are will likely become the Deputy Fife.
3- cover and concealment are key to surviving and possibly allowing yourself the opportunity to stop it.
4- if someone says drop your weapon- do it. Police will warn, bad guys won't and in that situation any non compliance is likely a death sentence.
5- Pray you're not in that type of situation!
While this is just one event, the statement I made has been proven to be correct in many other mass shootings as well.

While I generally agree with the above rules, #2 was not true for me the first time, despite the adrenaline. I did however have better training than just the typical shoot at paper targets in a square range to see if you can master basic marksmanship. I had additional training that was based on real life situations and similar stress was encountered as what you would have in a real life shooting situation. My instructor for the advanced class was not only a war vet but also a retired SWAT officer for a big city, had multiple real life shooting situation experience. He was as well known in local LE circles as Jim Cirillo of the NYPD was nationally. When I did eventually my first real life encounter the training kicked in just like it was supposed to. If someone is carrying and does not have actual combat or street experience I would definitely suggest getting some advanced training, including force on force training, from a good instructor that has "seen the Elephant", as Jeff Cooper used to say.

As far as rule #1, while it is generally true, the key question is just how much of a surprise it is. Jeff Cooper used to talk about mental states called "condition white" and "condition yellow." Condition white in a Walmart would be blissfully unaware of what is going on around you, and if something does happen it's a complete and total surprise to you. Condition yellow is aware and prepared mentally and physically to act if needed. It does NOT mean being paranoid or going around in a stressful state or walking around like you're on a combat patrol, making you an early candidate for a stroke or something. If you're aware of what is going on around you and know what to look for, you can sometimes prevent bad things from happening in the first place. Mas Ayoob once said, "If you're watching out for the thorns you also can't help admiring the beauty of the rose." As a great wise man once said, "You can observe a lot by just watching." 😄 If something bad does happen you're less likely to freeze up and think "OMG I can't believe this is happening here" and more likely to have your training kick in and react appropriately.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 · (Edited)
Draw your weapon,identify target, return fire, all in five seconds, how hard could that be? [sarc]
It might not be easy but it definitely is not impossible, as evidenced by the fact that it happened. Keeping the bad guys time of firing to 5 seconds is better than letting them have a minute or two. They certainly didn't have time to walk up to anyone and finish them off, as happens in many mass shootings.

The shooters went from casually walking up to the shooting scene to doing their best impression of Jesse Owens or Roger Bannister in the opposite direction.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Law enforcement are almost useless and can't or won't shoot back. There's videos everyday where LEO are beaten or shot by mobs and nothing happens.
I don't agree with that blanket statement, but as far as the topic at hand (mass shootings) it really doesn't matter about LE shooting back or not. They can't shoot back if they aren't there. If LE happens to be on the scene when a mass shooting occurs, great, but most mass shooters don't want to start a mass shooting where they know they're going to get shot at. What usually happens is a mass shooting happens somewhere where the shooter is confident that he or she won't encounter armed resistance, like a so called "no guns" zone. (really means no guns for the law abiding.) I recall one news story that said the police were at the scene of a mass shooting in 3 minutes but in a mass shooting a lot of people can get injured or killed in 3 minutes. Law enforcement agencies don't currently have Star Trek transporter technology where they can anywhere in mere seconds.
 

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The need to train/practice in the areas of what you MAY actually need to do IF attacked are extremely important and NOT what a vast majority of gun owners ever do.
drawing from concealment (assuming you carry that way), practicing finding the front sight quickly and placing it on target, identifying the target (this may be the easiest thing to do in most instances) they are the one pointing a weapon at you or slapping you up side your head), multiple shots into the target ( unless you really don't want to hurt the bad guy),etc, etc, etc.
moving and shooting or shooting at a moving target, identifying cover and or concealment.
standing still and shooting at a paper bad guy at a known distance is just a wee bit better than not taking the gun out of the sock drawer after you bought it.
Just my 2 cents.
 

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While this is just one event, the statement I made has been proven to be correct in many other mass shootings as well.

While I generally agree with the above rules, #2 was not true for me the first time, despite the adrenaline. I did however have better training than just the typical shoot at paper targets in a square range to see if you can master basic marksmanship. I had additional training that was based on real life situations and similar stress was encountered as what you would have in a real life shooting situation. My instructor for the advanced class was not only a war vet but also a retired SWAT officer for a big city, had multiple real life shooting situation experience. He was as well known in local LE circles as Jim Cirillo of the NYPD was nationally. When I did eventually my first real life encounter the training kicked in just like it was supposed to. If someone is carrying and does not have actual combat or street experience I would definitely suggest getting some advanced training, including force on force training, from a good instructor that has "seen the Elephant", as Jeff Cooper used to say.

As far as rule #1, while it is generally true, the key question is just how much of a surprise it is. Jeff Cooper used to talk about mental states called "condition white" and "condition yellow." Condition white in a Walmart would be blissfully unaware of what is going on around you, and if something does happen it's a complete and total surprise to you. Condition yellow is aware and prepared mentally and physically to act if needed. It does NOT mean being paranoid or going around in a stressful state or walking around like you're on a combat patrol, making you an early candidate for a stroke or something. If you're aware of what is going on around you and know what to look for, you can sometimes prevent bad things from happening in the first place. Mas Ayoob once said, "If you're watching out for the thorns you also can't help admiring the beauty of the rose." As a great wise man once said, "You can observe a lot by just watching." 😄 If something bad does happen you're less likely to freeze up and think "OMG I can't believe this is happening here" and more likely to have your training kick in and react appropriately.
Pegasus, I feel you probably have more training and experience than many of us.
I am familiar with all the info you mentioned from Cooper and Ayoob, but reading it is a far cry from training til second nature.
I have done some USPSA shooting and I do run drills, shoot from concealment, at moving targets or while moving as much as possible. Unfortunately due to cost and time I do it on my own and so I may not be doing anything more than learning bad habits.
While the alertness conditions of Cooper make a difference, being in condition yellow should be standard, but the average person isn't always that way and in the crowded venue, or work place where mass shootings generally occur it can happen so suddenly that your alertness only gets you a glance at your killer.
 

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I don't agree with that blanket statement, but as far as the topic at hand (mass shootings) it really doesn't matter about LE shooting back or not. They can't shoot back if they aren't there. If LE happens to be on the scene when a mass shooting occurs, great, but most mass shooters don't want to start a mass shooting where they know they're going to get shot at. What usually happens is a mass shooting happens somewhere where the shooter is confident that he or she won't encounter armed resistance, like a so called "no guns" zone. (really means no guns for the law abiding.) I recall one news story that said the police were at the scene of a mass shooting in 3 minutes but in a mass shooting a lot of people can get injured or killed in 3 minutes. Law enforcement agencies don't currently have Star Trek transporter technology where they can anywhere in mere seconds.
You missed my point. I was not referring to mass shootings. I was referring to when officers are out in a mob situation!

It just happened to an officer with a AR on his back. He ran to a shooting and was beaten down and pummeled by the crowd . I believe there is video of this in another thread.

Plus how many times are our LEO ambushed and outright murdered!

If our police are defenseless what can we do.

I believe there is a video of a mob busting out the windows of a occupied car and threatening to kill the old couple. The man gets out and draws his legal gun and is promptly arrested by police! Figure that one out.
The police did nothing to stop the mob!
Number of police officers shot this year reaches 128, union says 'defund' movement a factor


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And again people shot while driving.
This crap is everyday, everywhere.
How do you protect your family from this random acts of evil?


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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
You missed my point. I was not referring to mass shootings. I was referring to when officers are out in a mob situation!

It just happened to an officer with a AR on his back. He ran to a shooting and was beaten down and pummeled by the crowd . I believe there is video of this in another thread.

Plus how many times are our LEO ambushed and outright murdered!

If our police are defenseless what can we do.

I believe there is a video of a mob busting out the windows of a occupied car and threatening to kill the old couple. The man gets out and draws his legal gun and is promptly arrested by police! Figure that one out.
The police did nothing to stop the mob!
Number of police officers shot this year reaches 128, union says 'defund' movement a factor


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I've heard some of this on the news. Unfortunately those incidents are able to occur because of the politicians in charge in those areas. Where I live, if there are any peaceful protests they are really peaceful protests, and LE will quickly arrest someone or even multiple someones who crosses the line from peaceful protest to something else. If a mob tried anything like the above they wouldn't be as successful as they are in Portland or Milwaukee. I say "probably" because all the protests in 2020 out here were peaceful. A few arrests but no cars or buildings burned, no stores looted, no one dragged out of their car and beaten. The local LE agencies had prison buses on standby just in case they needed to make mass arrests. Heck, out here if LE had to arrest a mob doing illegal activity that would probably be better for the mob than letting the local community take care of them.
 

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I've heard some of this on the news. Unfortunately those incidents are able to occur because of the politicians in charge in those areas. Where I live, if there are any peaceful protests they are really peaceful protests, and LE will quickly arrest someone or even multiple someones who crosses the line from peaceful protest to something else. If a mob tried anything like the above they wouldn't be as successful as they are in Portland or Milwaukee. I say "probably" because all the protests in 2020 out here were peaceful. A few arrests but no cars or buildings burned, no stores looted, no one dragged out of their car and beaten. The local LE agencies had prison buses on standby just in case they needed to make mass arrests. Heck, out here if LE had to arrest a mob doing illegal activity that would probably be better for the mob than letting the local community take care of them.
Really sounds an awful lot like when the Nazis came for the Jews I didn't care as I'm not Jewish.

I live about 30 minutes south of Nashville and the things I've been posting about are all happening in the small towns all around Nashville.

A murder that is still not solved happened several blocks from my house. A random drive by. Plus now we have raiders that just run through your neighborhood and steal from your cars and garages. This happened two blocks over. We never had that kind of crime in our town.

Someone's got their head in the sand!
If you ask me.


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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Really sounds an awful lot like when the Nazis came for the Jews I didn't care as I'm not Jewish.
It's not that I don't care about what happens in Portland or Milwaukee, it's just that there's nothing that I can do about it. The people who live there and vote in the people who are in charge are the ones with the power to change things.

I live about 30 minutes south of Nashville and the things I've been posting about are all happening in the small towns all around Nashville.

A murder that is still not solved happened several blocks from my house. A random drive by. Plus now we have raiders that just run through your neighborhood and steal from your cars and garages. This happened two blocks over. We never had that kind of crime in our town.

Someone's got their head in the sand!
If you ask me.


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Okay, why don't you come right out and say it then. Who's got their head in the sand? It certainly isn't me. I was referring simply to civil unrest like in Portland and you're talking about general crime. I never said general crime like what you mentioned above doesn't occur in the biggest cities near me. It's two different subjects. IMO and in the opinion of many in LE in those big cities the number one cause of the violent crime is tied to drugs in some way or form. OTOH in my area if you are a innocent victim of a violent crime and you are forced to defend yourself, the local prosecutor in one of those cities isn't likely to prosecute you for it, making you a victim twice. A couple of guys tried to pull a guy out of his car to car jack him and he shot one of the carjackers. The other backed off, chose wisely. The local police did not arrest the driver. :) The prosecutor charged the criminal not the victim. The criminal was very angry about it on facebook. In the next biggest city a shop keeper had to shoot a robber some in the news media wanted to know when or if the victim was going to be charged. The prosecutor said to the news media that the victim wasn't going to be prosecuted and added, "If you rob someone with a gun you forfeit your right to not get shot." Despite these success stories though, crime still goes on. :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Heavily occupied area almost a cop at every major intersection. CCTV everywhere.


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After reading the story I can't see anything wrong with the advice. Heck, even if there is a cop parked in the parking lot, I don't leave a car unlocked and running and go into a convenience store with my gun still inside the car. In fact, IDK about TN but in Ohio if you're parked next to a cop and leave your car running and unattended you could get cited. The exception is those remote start devices where the car is locked and if someone breaks in they can't drive away. The only time I ever leave a gun inside my car is if I'm forced to go into a "no guns" zone, like the DMV. If I'm inside a building and something happens where I need it, if I had the time and ability to go out to my car and get it I probably wouldn't be going back in anyway. Although the state says I'm no longer required to retreat it's still a better option IF you can safely do so than getting into a shootout with someone.
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
I am familiar with all the info you mentioned from Cooper and Ayoob, but reading it is a far cry from training til second nature.
I agree.

I have done some USPSA shooting and I do run drills, shoot from concealment, at moving targets or while moving as much as possible. Unfortunately due to cost and time I do it on my own and so I may not be doing anything more than learning bad habits.
Regarding the bolded I am in the same boat now. I'm fortunate in that I have my own private outdoor range where I can do things like draw from my holster from concealment, etc., and other things that you can't practice at most ranges open to the public.

I haven't taken any tactical force on force training since before Covid was a thing and everything was shut down. Things are now starting to come back but now you have the ammo shortage. I've heard from the place where I last got force on force training that this hasn't been as much of an effect on them as they don't use live ammo anyway for that part of the training, and this particular club stocked up on supplies in advance of things reopening.
 

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Pegasus, I think I may have worded something that made it personal.

My point is when I moved to the south in 1990 crime was only in certain run down areas of Nashville. The city was safe for families way past midnight. Now there are muggings and shootings right on Broadway.

Crime has moved to outlying areas, like where I live. The guy that got his car stolen was a idiot and should have got a ticket or worse because he left his guns there.

I'm just trying to point out that crime is now everywhere and it's a lot more violent.

The riots in Nashvile were mild at best. Our police are not hogtied but they are overwhelmed.

I'm just trying to show if you carry you better be on your A game. Just having a gun does nothing if your not properly trained. As I believe you are.



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