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Discussion Starter #1
The forcing cone to barrel clearance on my 605 snubbie varies from the right to the left side. On the right I get between 0.004 to 0.006; on the left I get 0.008 to 0.011. The gun shoots well but I noticed that blow by flames are significant when shooting .357 mag loads. i showed the gun to the range gunsmith and he advised me that for a defensive snubbie I should not be concerned that much. I wanted to get some additional feedback from Taurus aficionados before I count it as no big deal. Any advice?
 

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If you're worried about it that much, i would personally give a ring to Miami and have them look at it. It may wear into a more uniform gap over time, but if you don't want to take the chance i would send it on vacation for a bit to fix it up.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks montkun. It doesn't bother me per se. I just want to make sure it's not a defect I should have taken care of. I don't want to send it back unless it is a defect. I am afraid that they'll try to cold work the cone and make it worse.
 

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Brownells makes a tool that will square it off, but that would be on your dime, plus if you square it off it will open it up to the widest gap. You could ask Taurus, but it's not really a defect in my mind. But they may take care of it. For a defensive snubby I think I would leave it alone unless you're having some kind of function problem.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks glen. I'm going to leave it alone. I found an informative stirrup which I have copied below:

The Colt Single Action Army –Barrels & etc. By Dennis L. Schrieber, Pistolsmith

For many years now the Colt Single Action Army has been primarily a collector’s firearm. Colt still puts a letter in the box with each gun, informing the proud owner that if they fire the gun that it will lose its value.This philosophy may explain why a pistol that is this much fun to shoot can have as many problems as they do. Today’s growing popularity of “Cowboy Action Shooting” has changed the way we look at the SAA. I’m sure that a lot of collectors would shutter at the sight of a 1st or 2nd generation Colt being fired from holster at the local SASS event. The “philosophy” is being shot full of holes. Historic items aside, these firearms are made to be used, shot and enjoyed.

A lot of the cowboy shooters are using one of the many SAA clones. However, the problems encountered are not limited to these Italian imports. The foremost problem that is encountered, across the board, is the lack of a proper forcing cone, and a proper cylinder to barrel gap. In just about all the pistols, the forcing cones are roughly formed and generally not square to the bore. A properly cut forcing cone is essential to accuracy and to reducing lead build up in the bore. In most examples, the forcing cones are found to be non-concentric with the bore, very rough, and not cut at the right angle. The bullet upon leaving the charge hole, in the cylinder, will not be correctly guided into the barrel. Bullet distortion and unwanted vibrations will occur. If the cone is not polished smooth lead will build up fast. As the lead builds it causes shot to shot variations and is not conducive to good groups.The most common problem found with the cylinder gap is really not what you would expect. The gap is generally within tolerance but usually not cut square to the bore. This also causes the bullets to enter the bore, upset.Also, in this area of the firearm, the other problem encountered is the lack of lead into the rifling. This, I believe, is all proof that the forcing cones are formed when the barrels are made and not cut during assemble.

The angle to which the forcing cone is cut and the size of the cylinder gap can be a point of many debates.Different manufactures have promoted the merits of different angles on different firearms over the years. We can find 5, 11 and 18 degrees among the most common.Ruger has touted the merits of the 5 degree while 18 degrees is the most popular. 11 degrees is generally considered to be gentler on the bullet and causing it less distortion. After the cone has been cut and polished to the right depth and the end of the barrel cut square to the cylinder, I recommend just breaking the edge of the cone with an 82 deg. cutter.

Cylinder gap can easily be increased using the same, bore guided, tool set that is used to cut the forcing cone.To decrease the gap requires that the barrel be set back. To set back a barrel, it is removed from the frame, mounted in a lathe, and the face is turned just enough to allow the barrel to be screwed in one full turn. After remounting in the frame, it can then be refaced to the desired gap. Some shooters want a very tight gap. The theory being that the smaller the gap the less gas will be lost thus, greater efficiency.Other shooters will point to the many test that have been printed that show little or no change in velocity or muzzle energy as the gap is increased. But, that’s a debate for a different time.Just remember that smaller gap also means that the bullet has less space to jump and therefore less chance to become misalign with the bore. However, this also means, that the gun will become more sensitive to heat and dirt. A gap of .006 inches is generally excepted as average and desirable for most shooting sports.The SAA design has been with us for about 160 years. What a great credential! So, if you love these handguns and like to shoot a classic design, then tune them up for maximum enjoyment.Remember to keep the sport fun and safe and visit you favorite pistolsmith.
 

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Makes sense to me sir.
 
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I guess as long as you're not leading and your rounds aren't all over the place I would leave it be. You really don't want over .008 though. This is out of tolerance even for a Taurus. If you send it in Taurus will generally stretch the forcing cone, or "adjust it" as they call it, which is kind of their fix all for anything forcing cone related and believe me you don't want that fix.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I just found some different issues with it that are making me send it back with a review board letter. Let's just say the problems are similar to those you had with yours recently. I sure hope I don't get it back repaired again with a stretched forcing cone...more to come later.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Well its off tomorrow. Let's see what they'll do...
 

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Discussion Starter #11
The last repair left the trigger with major grinds on top so there's hardly any metal left between the pin and top of trigger. There is also a small piece of the trigger sear missing. Maybe the frame is defective with not enough space between the pin and the underside of the frame opening necessitating the grinding? I don't know. Combine that with the b/c spacing gap issue, and its going back. Hopefully they will trash it and give me a new one.
 

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I had an M85 and a M327 with frame tolerance issues that required extreme gun smithing and custom fitting of stock parts just to get the firearms to cycle. It seems lately the most prominent of these tolerance issues seem to be the size of the hand and cylinder stop slots cut into the frame which allow the cylinder stop to access the cylinder and the hand to access the rivets on the star Assembly, (the recoil shield finishing also leaves allot to be desired but we won't go there now). If these are cut too wide they will cause timing issues due to the play of the loose moving parts. For example the cylinder stop slot in the frame of the M85 was machined too wide causing excessive side play in the cylinder stop, irrelevant of how many stock cylinder stops you installed since the cylinder stops are machined to a certain tolerance or width. The excessive side play in the cylinder stop caused play in the cylinder and the cylinder bores to overlap with the barrel which caused leading and accuracy problems. Instead of trashing the revolver taurus will stretch the forcing cone(adjust it) so that it is so wide it will accommodate any overlap. This will continue to cause accuracy problems, blow back and weaken the forcing cone substantially which may lead to tearing of the forcing cone since it is under extreme pressure. With a stretched forcing cone being wider than the cylinder bore and bullet and then tapering back down at the rifling will cause hot gases to build up in the pocket of the forcing cone.

With a forcing cone that is cut at an extreme angle like yours they will probably try to cut it more lessening the angle and leaving you with a monster B/C gap.

Unfortunately when manufacturing revolvers using what I am guessing 100% MIM with no hand finishing you are rolling the dice whether you get a run with correct specs or not. One tiny glitch in the molding or computer finishing and you end up with a paper weight. The only re-course is to rely 100% on the warranty process. Keep sending them back until they get it right or send you a good one. It's to bad really becuase the design and engineering of the revolvers are very sound however the manufacturing can be very hot or cold and does not seem like there is much QC going on in Brazil. This is just guess work on my part but I don't think many folks even Taurus Miami exec's really know what's goes on at Forjas Taurus other than what they are supposed to know. Bottom line we choose to purchase these revolvers so we must lie in the bed we made and do the best with what we got. You keep buying them like me you will get to know your FedEx reps well LOL.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I agree with you on these things. It's luck of the draw sometimes. Many do not have these issues. But as a company Taurus knows and it must be their policy that to hit these price points, they cannot QA every gun off the assembly line. It is probably cheaper for them to repair/replace a certain percentage that to institute extreme QA. This is unfortunate for those of us who have to deal with it, but this seems like the way they want to operate right now. Hopefully that will change but must happen at the top of the organization. You also hear similar issues with S&W and Ruger but maybe to a lesser extent. I like the design of the Taurus revolvers and the price, so I guess will just deal. Eventually I'm sure they will satisfy me, but I am patient. They should really have a final inspection process on repaired guns; it would pay for itself in a short time period.
 
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Discussion Starter #14
Well, I got the 605 back today. They replaced the barrel (shocked!) and the b/c gap is now in spec. So I'm happy about that. They also replaced the hand, I'm not sure why. However, they did not address the trigger issue which is the main reason I sent it back...
I'll take it apart over the weekend and see what they've done inside. More to come.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Unfortunately they were closed for holiday. Monday...
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Is the trigger still grinding, if so call CS tell them to get the shipping label ready.
Adeste - the trigger is not grinding on the frame, the technician grinded the top of the trigger above the pivot pin and there is hardly any metal above the trigger pin hole. See the picture below:

IMAG0101.jpg

Maybe it was rubbing the frame and they grinded (butchered) it to clear. If you open and zoom the picture you'll see how bad it is.
 

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Here's a pic of my 85's trigger from when I did the disassembly thread. It is as you see it straight from Taurus. It never has been back to Taurus for their warranty work, so far. It doesn't have a lot of metal on top either, but it has functioned fine for hundreds of rounds. I don't think I have over 1000 rounds in my 85UL. I really don't shoot it for more than a box of ammo when I do shoot it.

Anyway, my trigger might be a tiny bit thicker in that upper pivot point. Not by much, though. Regarding your trigger's sear, is that a chip I see? How far across does that chip go?

 

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Discussion Starter #19
Here's a pic of my 85's trigger from when I did the disassembly thread. It is as you see it straight from Taurus. It never has been back to Taurus for their warranty work, so far. It doesn't have a lot of metal on top either, but it has functioned fine for hundreds of rounds. I don't think I have over 1000 rounds in my 85UL. I really don't shoot it for more than a box of ammo when I do shoot it.

Anyway, my trigger might be a tiny bit thicker in that upper pivot point. Not by much, though. Regarding your trigger's sear, is that a chip I see? How far across does that chip go?


If you zoom in very close on my previous picture, you will see there is a minor chip on the edge. Not sure if it was from MIM or work done on it. Do you know if the trigger is a restricted part?
 

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I did see the chip. How far across the sear face does it go?

I haven't asked Taurus directly, but I have heard from others that Taurus does require the trigger to be "fitted" to the hammer. Meaning sear contact check and adjustment (filing). So Taurus does not just sell triggers, to the best of my knowledge.
 
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