Learned something at the range today

1944 Views 17 Replies 9 Participants Last post by dbsoundguy, Jun 2, 2008

dbsoundguy

Discussion Starter · May 31, 2008

Went shooting today with the grandson and there was a oldtimer shooting close by...
He was shooting some single six pistols and his sub-compact Glock..

Got to talking with him and among the conversation he talked about his Glock shooting low and that he is trying different grains of bullets to see if he can get it raised up..

Have you guys ever heard of that or done that?

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Robby

· #2 · May 31, 2008

That was one of the suggestions, I got when I bought my PT111, that I try 124 gr, or 147 gr and see if it did not raise POI to my POA.
I did try it, and changing from 115 gr to 124's did have an effect. It apparently has to do with the slower larger bullet does something that makes the muzzle rise more or less to change the POI.

Smokewagon

· #3 · Jun 1, 2008

Oh yeah, I heard of that. The greater the recoil, the higher the shot. I've adjusted some of mine that very way. It can be changed with heavier bullet weight (best) or more powder.

45 Forever

· #4 · Jun 1, 2008

My PT1911 will shoot all over the place with different ammo +p light bullets being the most unpridictable. 230 fmj and corbon dpx or Taurus 230 hollow points the all copper same as DPX all shoot well.

dbsoundguy

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jun 1, 2008

It apparently has to do with the slower larger bullet does something that makes the muzzle rise more or less to change the POI.

Hmmmm...maybe that means sometimes it is not always the shooting ability when you are not hitting right on target...I wonder when gun companies test there guns ..what grain or load they use..

Sounds like a person needs to try many different types to make sure he shoots right..Boy that could be costly real quick..

sure does have my curiosity up... 8)

Robby

· #6 · Jun 1, 2008

dbsoundguy said:
Hmmmm...maybe that means sometimes it is not always the shooting ability when you are not hitting right on target...I wonder when gun companies test there guns ..what grain or load they use..

Sounds like a person needs to try many different types to make sure he shoots right..Boy that could be costly real quick..

sure does have my curiosity up... 8)

Well if you have several different guns, caliber's it could take a bit of time, and money.
I had to go thru 115 gr, 124gr and a few 147's, but I came back to 115 gr, and learned to use the heinie sight better. My 38/357 2" snubby supprised me and just loves 158gr bullets, and is better than I am on target. The JUDGE, shoots anything you throw at it, and again it is better than I am. If I try, it is almost a ragged hole gun, out to about 50 ft. Well maybe the cowboy loads are a little off, but after three shots I can't see the target with them for the smoke on a calm day.
Supprisingly, my 22lr/22mag SA show no difference from expensive to cheapy blocks. It was shooting last time out, just about the same hole as the JUDGE.
Still need to try out my 905 9mm revolver, but it will come soon. I again have 3 dif. loads to try in it.

Steelheart

· #7 · Jun 1, 2008

I'm not sure that its the recoil you feel. I've seen a difference between bullet weights of 38 special in a medium frame 357. I think it has more to do with the different velocities and ballistic paths of the different weights.

Since I just got a 6" 689 I'll have to play with this further with different weights of 38 ammo to eliminate the possibility of recoil being an issue. However it will be a while until I have the time.

Steelheart

texastaurusguy

· #8 · Jun 1, 2008

Wouldn't the effect of gravity on a heavier bullet make a heavier bullet travel downward quicker? Not at 21 feet, but maybe at 50 feet or so? Or is the bullet travelling too fast for this to not be a factor for 100 yards or so.....?

I do try to buy a variety of different ammo - Remington, Winchester, Blazer, and anything else I can get ahold of.....just to try different bullets and bullet weights and see what effect different ammo has on my guns. If you just buy a different variety when you re-stock instead of going out and buying 6 boxes of different ammo all at once, it makes it alot more budget-friendly......

joe sixpack

· #9 · Jun 1, 2008

yes i've heard of this. i believe it has to do with the twist rate in the barrel.. example beretta 92's are optimized for 124gr bullets, this is the best grain for the twist rate of the rifling in the barrel.. however i actually (my self) prefer 147gr i tend to like heaver bullets.

however i notice no difference at normal pistol shooting distances say 10-25yards, now supposedly i've read twist rate really only rears it's ugly head at longer ranges.. so it's primarily an effect you'll see in long guns, or long shots anyway.

different brand of ammo's can also fire differently.

honestly though i usually shoot no more then 25yards with pistols and i see little difference between weights or varieties of ammo.

dbsoundguy

Discussion Starter · #10 · Jun 1, 2008

Thanks Guys...this is really helped with my curiosity

example beretta 92's are optimized for 124gr bullets,

Joe...where did you find your information?.....I would like to look up what Taurus tests there revolvers with like my 627..
Where would you begin to look online...I have no clue

honestly though i usually shoot no more then 25yards with pistols and i see little difference between weights or varieties of ammo

this is what i wonder too...
So...how much difference does it Really make when you are shooting no more than 10, 15 or 30 yards...Sounds like alot of factors and alot of time and money to spend figuring it out...Might just be better to learn how the gun shoots with what ammo you use the most..lol

...

Robby...did you test all those useing sandbags or just offhand? 8)

sounds like you did your homework and spent some time.
Seems like to test this out you would have to have a real steady rest , so you can see the true results on paper...

I think I should just learn where my gun shoots with what i have and carry for ammo..

I have Hornady .357 140 gr JHP..this is kinda my all around choice for both outdoors and genaral carry..

Do you guys think it best to sandbag this to see or offhand

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Qwiks draw

· #11 · Jun 1, 2008

Db.... you finally walked right into the bear trap. Giggle.LOL Tell you why in a minute.CLUE: What's the one thing that happens when the Prof is in the house?

It could be his grip due to changing finger pressure of the grip, moving his thumb/thumb as the trigger is pulled, or trigger pull are causing his problems.

There's a neat article in Gun Test's that shows how the large bottom of the magazine was causing the test shooters troubles until they got used to shooting the G36 in .45ACP. Placing the fingers properly and getting used to the bulge took some experience.

Some of the Glocks have that as something to consider.

Now for the answer to the first mystery. Ready for this? HOMEWORK!

:-\ :-X

:clap: :clap: :yipee: :yipee: :yipee: :yipee: :wave: :loco: :devil: :devil: :bang: :bang:. Lucky for you this is easy, but it is loooong.

Could be you are already aware of what's coming and seen all this, but here it is anyway.

http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=6716.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=6717.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=7092.msg66642#msg66642
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=7093.msg67050#msg67050

Truth be told what the others have said above does play into all this. I'm just adding other stuff to consider. And the cures are all in the links.

Got you before your furry little critter or other animation could get in a shot. LOL

It's a running inside joke folks. Somewhat. LOL

45 Forever

· #12 · Jun 1, 2008

I am used to single action of my PT 1911 or the trigger pull on my XD-9 which is short and hardley any stack.
I tried the SIG DAK and The HK LEM talk about long and although the LEM was smother then the DAK I doubt without some serious practice I could hit a barn. trigger pull to me is everything as I have Rheumitoid arthritis and my fingers don't have the strentgh they used to. I tryed a Khar and could barly pull the trigger. As this gun shop only carries taurus revolvers and no mini autos don't ask you'll hate the answer. I didn't have a chance to check out the pt 145 which is what I want. geuss I wait for the next gun show about a week or drive 50 miles to another gun shop.

Robby

· #13 · Jun 1, 2008

Robby...did you test all those useing sandbags or just offhand?

sounds like you did your homework and spent some time.
Seems like to test this out you would have to have a real steady rest , so you can see the true results on paper...
Ok, I did not have a pistol vise, or even sand bags. But I did put together a bench, and shot off of it to check my results.The POI rose almost to the POA by going to the 124 gr. They were not dramatic but there was a difference.

Like some say, grip, trigger pull, and being shaky can cause tremendous differences with a 3" sight picture. It was me, the heinie's, and a semi auto. I pretty much fixed me!!! I learned finally where to hold with the heinies. Then I could keep it close to the center of an 8 1/2 by 11 sheet target.

But when I went to a 2" snubby, same ranges, 158gr 38 ( believe that is what I had), I was on target, close to the center from the first aimed shot. Actually the sight radius on a snubby is almost indentical to the PT111 in length. I know a lot of my off was me!

But when I fired my JUDGE, and my 22lr SA I was shooting almost a ragged hole, with a 9" sight picture, or a 6 1/2" sight picture. I also was using a 5" circular target for these last two.

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joe sixpack

· #14 · Jun 1, 2008

i can't remember exactly where i read it and more specifically about the beretta perhaps the manual? i can't even remember the twist rate on the barrels but i do remember reading it was optimized for 124gr 9mm.

there is a mathematical formula for working out optimum bullet weight for a givin rifling twist rate and vis versa.. dont ask me what it is cause i dont know and probably would'nt understand it even if i did, im not all that concern about optimal bullet weights for a givin twist rate cause like i said i actually prefer 147gr 9mm so ideally i should be using 124 so go figure.

here is a site which helps explain why twist rate effects different weights.
http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.rifle-barrel-twist-rates.html

dbsoundguy

Discussion Starter · #15 · Jun 1, 2008

Db.... you finally walked right into the bear trap.

You know ... I should have known better than to ask a Gun related question in here..I am so used to having fun in the "Lounge" as a kid...Now I go and ask a growed up adult question and ..WOW...

And!!!!... I forgot that Qwiks might see this..Dang It

Qwiks ..you know I am not going to read all those...there is not enough tea and snacks for me to do that..lol (thanks though for going easy on me 8))
You guys are so cool...I have more info than my brain can handle now..lol

Thanks Steelheart and TX guy for your earlier replies

It could be his grip due to changing finger pressure of the grip, moving his thumb/thumb as the trigger is pulled, or trigger pull are causing his problems.

There's a neat article in Gun Test's that shows how the large bottom of the magazine was causing the test shooters troubles until they got used to shooting the G36 in .45ACP. Placing the fingers properly and getting used to the bulge took some experience.

Some of the Glocks have that as something to consider

This was a big guy too, that could be part of it..it makes sense..it sure was a small gun..
He also said he reloads, so by talking with him I would say he knows his stuff pretty good..And he was shooting through a thingy that measures the speed of the bullet(yeah I know, don't know what they are called..OMG..that could start a whole new topic..lol ;D)
He sure was a nice guy..loved talking with him
Just made me think, when he talked about the bullet weights

Robby...thanks...I will probably have to use a bench the same way you did..I am going to see what the difference is.. My Tracker is ported so that should also help as far as recoil(that is probally a good thing cause I can be a wimp when it comes to shooting sometimes..

)
I would venture to guess that if i am off---It is probably 90% shooting ability on my part..lol

45 Forever...I always have had a problem shooting those D/A revolvers and auto's....I will say that since being on this forum and learning about shooting D/A , I practice all the time with D/A on my Tracker..and since I have been doing that, I was able to shoot a Glock for the first time and hit something besides air..lol

Joe...cool info....I have to agree with you on understanding all that stuff on twist and bullet weights and such... :???: :???:

thanks for the link..I will go check it out soon as I am done typing this

Guess I have to just go use all the info I got and try this myself..
Thanks all of you that replied..think my brain is tired now..lol

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45 Forever

· #16 · Jun 1, 2008

When it comes to rules there is no greater sport than shooting a hangun that can put you into a major meltdown. Hands to tight ,fingers to tight, eyes one open or both ,stance ,shoulders, one hand or two,safety on or off and if its dark were did I leave the safety. I could go on for days its a wonder that we love this sport and the advantages it brings with it. but we do and its great and I thought golf was bad. I'm glad I started shooting as a vary young child because it must have taken the better part of 30 years just to shot the darn thing LOL

Chef

· #17 · Jun 2, 2008

Lighter bullets hit lower. Got that from John Taffin.

dbsoundguy

Discussion Starter · #18 · Jun 2, 2008

Lighter bullets hit lower

cool... :thumb:

thanks...chef...I will remeber that

1 - 18 of 18 Posts

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