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Bingo.

Even in the SWAT raids against known violent criminals that I've seen on TV, they always start yelling "Police, search warrant" before they hit the door, even if it's only a few seconds before. There is no way anyone inside could not know it was the police...and if there were any question, what kind of moron starts shooting at an unidentified target. Sounds like the instances you hear about when some idiot shoots his own son or daughter because they came home unexpectedly.

If it isn't the police and you shoot, it might save your life. If it is the police and you shoot, you are almost certainly dead.

One thing I noticed in the video of the District Attorney at the 0:35 mark is that he made reference to the fact that the shooter was known to police and infers that such knowledge played a part in obtaining the warrant.
So what happens when it is a gang of thugs that decide to holler "Police Search Warrant" as they bust in your door?

No knock warrants should be banned or severely curtailed.
 

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We're dealing here with different, far different, scenarios from all over the nation. I live in a rural area, and have my opinions, based on local realities. Someone living in a city has a different reality.

Militarization of the Police? Huh. Ever hear of flying squads, or stake-out squads? They were pretty much pre-SWAT groups. They used what today woul be considered "military-grade" weapons, and were prepared for gun-fights. Actually, they were there BECAUSE of the possibility of gun-fights. Pretty military.

Dressed in black, with masks? I suppose that one is ignoring the prevalent POLICE in large letters both front and back??

"Testosterone-hyped"? Really? I seem to remember a thing called a Warrant being required BEFORE a team is sent out. They don't just cruise neighborhoods hoping to get the go ahead. Then again, it isn't the SWAT people who approve the raid, or get the warrant. THAT all comes from the senior management of the Department. NOT the SWAT Team. All they get is a sometimes vague address.

All that said, it should be a common practice that warrants are verified for accuracy BEFORE action is taken. Addresses should also be verified in the same manner. Perhaps, if the senior management of the Department were to be held accountable for errors on their part, things MIGHT calm down.

Something to consider. The SWAT Teams are designed, and trained, to be called upon to handle violent situations with a minimum of force. Lethal force. Using a SWAT Team to serve a warrant on a non-violent charge is much akin to trying to plant a garden using a bulldozer. THAT IS A MANAGEMENT ISSUE.

Sort of like sending your attack-trained German Shepherd to bring you the paper boy. He will come back with the boy, but on his own trained terms. The kid might be a little worse for wear. :D
 

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I wasn't there so I have no idea. What does knocked 3 times before entering mean? Hit the door 3 times in rapid succession then immediately kick it in or beat on the door a few times wait 20-30 seconds, and repeat 2 more times before finally kicking the door in after a minute or two go by?


Some people like to reside in their home in various stages of dress, even in the middle of the day. I know people who when home are always naked, someone knocks on their door it is going to take them a few minutes to answer it. Also know several people that walk around in their under clothes and would still have to take a few minutes to get decent before opening the door. People also sleep in various stages of dress. How quick can you answer the door at any given time, especially if you are a sleep?


Search the internet for: home invader impersonates police. There are a lot of hits where this has happened and will continue to happen.


When I replaced my cheap front doors I replaced them with reinforced metal doors and jambs that are lined with metal. Studs on both sides are tripled up, screws are long enough to pass through all 3 studs, and the doors open outward instead of into the house. This was all done for added strength during a hurricane, as a side affect the doors are going to be real hard to kick in. Exterior hinges are made so hinge pins can not be removed without cutting steel.


I normally don't answer the door when someone knocks unannounced. Everyone I know knows to call ahead. A while back I had a persistent knock at the door that I initially ignored. After several minutes of knocking I yelled out to see who it was, they were purposely standing in a blind spot. They said police, I told them to hold on, and immediately called non emergency sheriff number to confirm they were at my door. They were, I opened it, and stepped out to talk to them. Can't remember what they wanted, pretty sure they were checking with everyone because a suspect was running through the yards. Deputy was a little pissed at me, but he got over it and was glad I did not open the door armed.

I stand behind my earlier statement that there has to be a better way.
 

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I wasn't there so I have no idea. What does knocked 3 times before entering mean? Hit the door 3 times in rapid succession then immediately kick it in or beat on the door a few times wait 20-30 seconds, and repeat 2 more times before finally kicking the door in after a minute or two go by?
I think they use the "Sheldon Standard"....

 

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We're dealing here with different, far different, scenarios from all over the nation. I live in a rural area, and have my opinions, based on local realities. Someone living in a city has a different reality.

Militarization of the Police? Huh. Ever hear of flying squads, or stake-out squads? They were pretty much pre-SWAT groups. They used what today woul be considered "military-grade" weapons, and were prepared for gun-fights. Actually, they were there BECAUSE of the possibility of gun-fights. Pretty military.

Dressed in black, with masks? I suppose that one is ignoring the prevalent POLICE in large letters both front and back??

"Testosterone-hyped"? Really? I seem to remember a thing called a Warrant being required BEFORE a team is sent out. They don't just cruise neighborhoods hoping to get the go ahead. Then again, it isn't the SWAT people who approve the raid, or get the warrant. THAT all comes from the senior management of the Department. NOT the SWAT Team. All they get is a sometimes vague address.

All that said, it should be a common practice that warrants are verified for accuracy BEFORE action is taken. Addresses should also be verified in the same manner. Perhaps, if the senior management of the Department were to be held accountable for errors on their part, things MIGHT calm down.

Something to consider. The SWAT Teams are designed, and trained, to be called upon to handle violent situations with a minimum of force. Lethal force. Using a SWAT Team to serve a warrant on a non-violent charge is much akin to trying to plant a garden using a bulldozer. THAT IS A MANAGEMENT ISSUE.

Sort of like sending your attack-trained German Shepherd to bring you the paper boy. He will come back with the boy, but on his own trained terms. The kid might be a little worse for wear. :D

YES TESTOSTERONE HYPED!!! Example: Veteran with kown PTSD trying find his apartment is driving around the lot. Cops hem him in & surround the car guns drawn including ARs. Order given to extract him from car. Apparently someone thinks extract means to shoot the hell out of the car with an AR. 17 shots fired 12 hits on driver.
Barricade situation. No shots fired yet.Cops have apartment surrounded. Decide they need a better vantage point. Go to house next door. Knock once no one answer. Bash down door roust occupants including 2 kids at gunpoint into the street in their underwear!!
That is just Las Vegas. I have more.

BW
 
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Sorry, but I have a very hard time believing that any judge would issue a no-knock warrant simply because someone told the police his neighbor was selling drugs. Not sure what you source on that story is but I'd certainly have to question it.
"No knock" warrant was for the first house they went to.

They took it upon themselves to bust into the second guys house.

All the Best,
D. White
 
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YES TESTOSTERONE HYPED!!! Example: Veteran with kown PTSD trying find his apartment is driving around the lot. Cops hem him in & surround the car guns drawn including ARs. Order given to extract him from car. Apparently someone thinks extract means to shoot the hell out of the car with an AR. 17 shots fired 12 hits on driver.
Barricade situation. No shots fired yet.Cops have apartment surrounded. Decide they need a better vantage point. Go to house next door. Knock once no one answer. Bash down door roust occupants including 2 kids at gunpoint into the street in their underwear!!
That is just Las Vegas. I have more.

BW
So, now stupidity is called testosterone hyped? That, by the way, would require a medical diagnosis, or a complete lack of understanding of what testosterone does in a human.

Once again, where is the management that brought these incidents to you? The judges who sign off on these warrants? Do they live in a separate world, and never know what their rules of engagement are? They MAKE the rules, how could they be surprised when something happens.

You want testosterone hyped? Look at the million-dollar thugs playing children's games in stadiums, then going out and getting involved in murder, assault, rape, drugs, and domestic violence. Yet, the same people who think that Police are testosterone hyped never seem capable of connecting the dots there.

We need to start pointing our fingers at the management of these people, and demanding that THEY be held accountable for the performance of both the officers, and the childish thugs we elevate as though they were heroes, and not animals.

Just curious, but WHO knew what this "veteran with PTSD" was doing? Did he have a sign on his car saying "PTSD on board"? How, exactly, did he lose his apartment? If his PTSD was that bad, he shouldn't have had access to a motor vehicle.

Before someone makes a childish comment, I KNOW PTSD, and have worked with people actually suffering with it for 35 years. What's funny is that true PTSD is NOT a military only phenomena. ANYONE who suffers a traumatic incident can suffer from it. Problem is, until it became a guaranteed income generator, it was regarded as a transient condition. Most people evidencing PTSD GET OVER IT. Of course, in our modern, wimpy, society we're sure that simply uttering that mantra excuses anything, and transfers blame to others.
 

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I can't find it now, but there was a botched raid on an old couple's house that not only was the "probable cause" the police used to get the warrant bogus, they were lazy and didn't bother to run the "suspicious" cars seen day and night there which turned out to belong to their 8 kids, who were there all times of the day and night because their parents were elderly and very frail, and needed someone to stay with them. The kids, all in their 40's to 60 or so, took turns doing it. When they did the raid, they were all there for the father's 80 something birthday, and the cops smashed the door down and destroyed the house, looking for the "drugs" that weren't there. The elderly mother nearly died after having a heart attack when a shotgun was shoved into her face and she was forced down on the ground. One of the kids was a well known lawyer, who filed all kinds of stuff against the county, and got a nice chunk of change for his parents. Funny thing was, they said on the radio early on that they messed up, but continued tearing the house up. I suppose they were hoping to find a joint to justify the raid. They didn't and all they accomplished was making the police look really stupid. Later on it came out that the house had come under surveilance after an informant gave them the address, but the cops wrote it down wrong and the correct house was several blocks away on West or East XXXXX St, and the house didn't fit the description he gave them at all. These kinds of screw ups happen a lot, and I don't see where it's worth it, even when drugs are found. The "drug war" was lost back when Prohibition failed, and continuing it for everything but booze is a pointless exercise, the cure is worse than the disease in most cases.

They have been known to get the wrong house on occasion which is what worries me about it ! No perfect solution but they need to try something different if for no other reason than to save themselves from getting shot.
 

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Here is a link to a shooting about 2 miles from me. I understand their reasoning about surprise but it seems to me that more people are getting shot on both sides when they serve them this late or early depending on how you look at it. I could see where someone could not understand what they were saying when being jarred awake in the middle of the night. Two Byron officers shot serving warrant, suspect dead | 13wmaz.com
So what happens when it is a gang of thugs that decide to holler "Police Search Warrant" as they bust in your door?

No knock warrants should be banned or severely curtailed.
You'd have thought the police in middle Georgia would've learned their lesson about this by now; it wasn't too long ago that police in Macon, where I am right now, got the wrong address and kicked in the door of a little old lady who was hard of hearing and just sitting in her recliner watching tv. Well, living where she did and being vulnerable and frail, she kept a small pistol beside her; and when they burst in, she fired a shot, thinking it was a home-invasion, and they promptly shot her dead.

I've been the victim of 2 home invasions, so I pay attention to these kinds of incidents; and criminals now make that very same announcement "This is the _____ Police Department, we have a warrant!" almost every single time; so it's not going to be unusual for home-owners to not believe it's really the police, especially if they know they haven't broken the law, and open fire on the intruders.

Complicating matters further, it's also not unusual for someone with a grudge against somebody else to falsely and anonymously report crime activity at that person's residence to try and get them in trouble; and again, this kind of shooting would be the likely result because the homeowner would know there isn't a legitimate reason for the police to be at his door... he will logically conclude it must be a home invasion about to take place.

Then there are the informants, upon whose word the police often obtain these knock or no-knock warrants; this is brilliant police work, let me tell you... most of these folks became informants because they are addicts who've already been caught and are trying to work off their own punishments. These are folks who wouldn't be considered honest or accurate enough by judges or prosecutors to actually be called on to testify as witnesses in a courtroom, probably can't even stay sober long enough to do that... but their recollection and information will be considered reliable enough by police to seek a warrant, the serving of which stands such a great likelihood of an armed confrontation that it will be served by a SWAT team. :blink:
 

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So, now stupidity is called testosterone hyped? That, by the way, would require a medical diagnosis, or a complete lack of understanding of what testosterone does in a human.

Once again, where is the management that brought these incidents to you? The judges who sign off on these warrants? Do they live in a separate world, and never know what their rules of engagement are? They MAKE the rules, how could they be surprised when something happens.

You want testosterone hyped? Look at the million-dollar thugs playing children's games in stadiums, then going out and getting involved in murder, assault, rape, drugs, and domestic violence. Yet, the same people who think that Police are testosterone hyped never seem capable of connecting the dots there.

We need to start pointing our fingers at the management of these people, and demanding that THEY be held accountable for the performance of both the officers, and the childish thugs we elevate as though they were heroes, and not animals.

Just curious, but WHO knew what this "veteran with PTSD" was doing? Did he have a sign on his car saying "PTSD on board"? How, exactly, did he lose his apartment? If his PTSD was that bad, he shouldn't have had access to a motor vehicle.

Before someone makes a childish comment, I KNOW PTSD, and have worked with people actually suffering with it for 35 years. What's funny is that true PTSD is NOT a military only phenomena. ANYONE who suffers a traumatic incident can suffer from it. Problem is, until it became a guaranteed income generator, it was regarded as a transient condition. Most people evidencing PTSD GET OVER IT. Of course, in our modern, wimpy, society we're sure that simply uttering that mantra excuses anything, and transfers blame to others.
Since I see you got your medical degree at the USPS I won't even reply to your drivel. Didn't know the POST OFFICE was an institute of higher learning! :)

BW
 

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Cute, but ignorant.

I also was an EMT/P/Firefighter for Prince George's County, Maryland.

Part of a team dealing with Critical Incident Stress Debriefing in the Department. To the less educated, sir, that was another term for PTSD.

Want to try again? This time engage your brain BEFORE engaging your fingers.

I believe that I warned against childish comment. Should have listened.

This is downgraded enough for those without medical training to understand. It would seem that only those with an agenda, rather than facts, would use the term testosterone hyped. :)
 
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