[Ace]

On another thread we had a discussion on when to let an Leo if you are carrying knife. People have their own perceptions on what they consider dangerous and what is not. Some of the most useful tools I gained from my martial arts training was the ability to safely deal with an attacker with a knife. Mainly what students had to do is take away the wooden knife from various attacks. It becomes vary apparent what works and what doesn't. What stuck me as odd is the size of the knife we started out with. It was big and it was a stilleto. Then as we got proficient with that the knife grew smaller. I asked my instructor about this she said the smaller the knife the more dangerous it is and here is the reason: A big knife you can see, is harder to hide and in general moves slower so it is easier for us to take it away. You can keep track of it easier, you always know where it is and which hand it in. A smaller knife is easier to hide and a lot harder to keep track of and generally you can't tell when they are going to strike with it because its harder do judge the correct distance. Plus a smaller knife has less places you can get a hold on to when you try to remove it from their hands. The most dangerous knife in our art is an exacto. It slips into the hand and you can barely see the blade so if someone were to hit you with it, by the time you realize there is a little piece of metal in their hand it's too late. Also from her experience my teacher said a favorite trick of girl gang members was to hide a razor blade between the fingers when they got into a fight they would slap someone and slash their faces. Think about it you see an open hand coming at you, no real danger there so you might just wanna take it and you wind up with you face permanently scarred after stitches. The whole purpose I'm giving you this bedtime story kids? don't let anyone confrontational into your personal space. "What's your personal space?" You might ask. Well stand up and get in front of a mirror. Stick your arm straight out with your fingers fully extended and touch the mirror. That is your personal space in order for an attacker without any weapon to get they would have to take a step and your mind has time enough to tell your body to react to defend yourself. If they have a knife or bat the extension of your arm to the end of the weapon is your personal space. Don't let them sneak into that space. The other thing I want to tell you? If it's got an edge to it it is dangerous, sharp pointy things are dangerous. That's why banning pocket knives and box knives on a plane is ludicrous, because anything can become sharp and kill you.

 

[Robby]

Just my opinion, a little bit of tape to allow you to hold on, and a sharpened edge of a regular credit card, short or long side is a definite slashing weapon that could do real damage on a plane or in an alley.

 

[texastaurusguy]

Hell, I've heard of a rolled up newspaper or magazine doing alot of damage......you just have to use your imagination, and they'll never be able to make you put that in your checked luggage.

 

[45 Forever]

From a practicing knife fighter I agree and am more scared of a blade then a gun for a few reason they are allowed almost everywhere. Guys that are good with them will make you wish you've been shot and you'll have about 15 slices on your body including face by the time it takes to draw a gun.

I carry between 2 to 3 all the times a sleek one that's thin that I can use as an impact weapon its easy to open and a reverse style blade that I use for back up or weak hand or to disarm people with guns. I'm waiting for my carry lic. so it will seem strange defending myself with something I've trained for years to fight against.

I will always carry my blades. and my comfort area is 7 yards that's the distance that the police and other professionals use to determine how far a person can travel and attack by the time you can draw.

I will always answer yes to the question do you have any weapons on you as they can't be confused with a pen knife. Some LEO have asked me to give them to them for their safety which I have know problem with. They don't know if I'm a good guy or not. When asked why 2 knives I answer you have backup guns and a huge knife on you. In a kind non threatening manor LEO's are always in charge and deserve my respect period.

 

[NYPD]

Guys that are good with them will make you wish you've been shot and you'll have about 15 slices on your body including face by the time it takes to draw a gun.

Most definitely. A perp with a knife up to 21 feet away can run at you and slash you before you have your firearm in the ready position. (It's true)

I've been slashed while on duty and I can tell you from experience that IT REALLY HURTS!!!!

Nothing beats good knife training for close combat.....nothing.

 

[45 Forever]

I was working out with one of my instructors and I'm good we were using training blades and in seconds I would have been dead about 20 times before I hit the ground. they are vary underrated in this Country. But are used heavily in other parts of the world.

For those that carry be vary careful against a guy with a knife the speed of the attack will surprise you. Treat them as if they had a bomb and neutralize them as quickly as possible

 

[joe sixpack]

i dont see pocket knifes as a weapon i really dont, ya they can be used as weapons.. but most are folders, poor grip for fighting.. no pocket knifes dont really bother me.

the hi jackers of 911 used box cutters.. that really does'nt mean much though.. it just shows that it's easy to get hurt or killed.. not that pocket knifes make good weapons.

 

[Ace]

Thats where the danger lies, in your perception that it's not a weapon. You dismiss it, or you don't even notice it until it's too late. Granted they might not do much damage at first but a slash to the tendons in the wrist on your gun hand will disarm you, leaving you a bloody mess to fight back with. Granted, your typical schrade old timer might not seem all that impressive, it's enough to reach an artery, and that will end your day real quick. I discounted them at first but I have seen how useful a tool a small knife can be in defense and in offense. I knew a sleazy old biker who bounced for some local broken spokes. All he carried was a butter knife. That's right a butter knife. Nobody would mess with him, not even me, just because I knew what he could do with that butter knife, and when he was done using it he always grabbed another one and slipped it into his back pocket. So take what you will from this, just be careful and not underestimate the things you consider to be fluffy bunnies.

 

[JR]

Nothing with an edge is fluffy. Take a minute and look at your body. See how close to the surface many of your mobility providers, like tendons and muscles, are located. Look at the depth, at pulse points, that arteries are located.

My personal space when a person is acting aggressively, is 6-8 feet. Inside of that, I will attack them upon their first hostile move. If they have made a furtive move upon closing, my personal space is that distance away when they made the move. I'm too old, and take too long any more to heal, to be concerned with Marquis of Queensberry rules. A knife is a lethal weapon, and lethal force will be employed against the wielder, ASAP.

I've carried knives for decades in Fire/EMS. I still carry a Spyderco serrated Standard Model. I also have a 300 Series Gerber in my pocket. If I have to go to a knife, it will be used to dis-engage far enough to use the gun. No fancy dis-arming techniques, just a focus on opening the distance, while whittling away at the attackers arms, or whatever else I can safely reach.

I've responded to knife-fights where the winner was determined by who lived the longest. Both were dead when we got there. No thank you.

 

[joe sixpack]

ace you take what i say and completly take it to extremes just because you wanna make you pov the dominate one.

i already said just about anything can hurt and or kill a human.. i already stated high jackers on 911 used box cutters..

you could use almost any object to kill someone, heck you dont even need a weapon, take their head and bash it on the ground.. or stomp on their chest or face with your foot.. im a big guy.. if i stomped on you with my foot you would'nt survive more then 1 blow i can guarentee you that.

a trained martial artest or indeed just about any fighting style out there including boxing could murder you litterly with their bar hands.

if you wanna treat every object you see someone with as a weapon be my guest, it's that kinda mentality that gets finger nail clippers confiscated at airports.

i dont see pocket knifes as weapons unless it's a big bubba huge pocket knife, the kind most people carry have poor handles for stabbing, could a ok at slashing, remember ya a smaller knife is harder to see but there is a hand attached to it, and a arm attached to the hand.

live in fear if you like over every little object, heck i guess if you see someone else carrying a gun you just about crap your pants.

 

[texastaurusguy]

How about this one - would you consider this one a weapon?

In the words of Crocodile Dundee, "Now THAT'S a knife !!"

 

[45 Forever]

Guys as an ex bouncer at a biker bar in my younger days I've seen my share of knife fights and they are ugly and dangerous. Most don't survive that's why I took up the art. Even a small knife should be considered a deadly weapon. For Joe believe as you wish no one will change your mind.

Choosing to carry a gun should be an addition to your self defense training first hand to hand even a little goes along way then add the knife which is an extension to your hand techniques then finally the gun. You can put mace or OC spray or an ASP in there somewhere.

If and when you face a hardened criminal it will be like fighting a werewolf its violent and they don't care about your 45. They don't take commands and they don't quit I don't care how many center mass shots you just dumped into him.

When you watch cops and you see six full sized LEO's fighting a 145lb meth addict and the LEO's are losing and there's blood all over the place because in real life if I hit you, you will bleed. Because I know how to street fight which is deadlier then most martial arts and I've taken a few. And so have they, don't forget that, you might be facing Jackie Chan or for the old guys Shane from the westerns who will take your gun from you and slap the crap out of you with it.

I'd listen to NYPD and the medics that's been there and the few of us that's fought for our lives either in war or on the streets.

For the newbies nothing can prepare you from the animals that walk the streets. so don't just carry prepare for the worst day of your life.

Truthfully when I walk the dogs at night and I see 3 teenagers walking at me that I don't know wearing hooded sweatshirts I'm scared and I'm a big guy with a deep booming voice that can normally stop people in there tracks. But these new BG don't care because they got there 9's and they will cap your butt for just the heck of it.

To the admin this is as clean as I can make it. to anyone that wants to visit hell let me know and I'll take you there. Hope you don't mind if I don't stick around already been there done that.

 

[Gray_Wolf]

Looks like this is about the definition of a term weapon, since no one is saying getting slashed or stabbed isn’t dangerous or that it can‘t kill you.

I even know a few target shooters that will argue that their handguns aren’t weapons because they just us it for shooting paper at the range… different mentality I guess.

Where I live, I can’t legally carry a gun so I do often carry a folder or an OC spray. I also have a 26”collapsible button but I find it too bothersome to carry most of the time.

Seems like antis love to use the word weapon against us :-\ so personally I just call things what they are; gun, knife, button, axe etc...

 

[joe sixpack]

well 45 you're right no one's gonna change my mind cause there is nothing that needs changed, if you wanna debate what can be used to injure or kill someone then it's no contest because just about everything can be a weapon.

there are items i see as weapon (where their primary job is to be a weapon) and then there are items that can be used as a weapon (almost everything) that i do not consider a weapon as it's not their primary job.

when it comes to those items they are only weapons when someone holding it is utilizing it as such, their demeanor, body language and posture all signifies rather they plan to use it as a weapon.

screw driver: weapon or tool?
shovel: weapon or tool?
fork: weapon or tool?
box cutter: weapon or tool?
pipe wench: weapon or tool?
golf club: weapon or sporting equipment?
pencil/pen: weapon? or writing tool?
hardback book: weapon? or educational tool?
car keys: weapon or .. um key?

the question here is not rather or not pocket knifes are can injure you cause they can, it's not rather they can kill you cause they can..

no the question is, is a pocket knifes primary job as a tool or weapon? as i've said almost any object except maybe feathers can be used as a weapon.

me, personally i do not find your avg pocket knife to be a weapon.. i feel they are tools first, and since almost all objects can become a weapon debating it's use as a weapon is null but rather is that it's primary roll.

i'll take my gun over a knife any day.. rather you're 2 feet or 20.

 

[45 Forever]

I added a pic of part of my knife collection to the gallery. None could be confused with pocket knives. The Casper Crawford fighter on the far left can be stuck into a tree and stood on like a step its that tough. The SOG Pentagon on the right was a gift form my cousin that he carried in Bosnia and 3 times in Iraq. I'm not tying to change you mind Joe good luck with just your gun your going to need it. Your attitude defies all training almost every where like Gunsite Massad and Academy of personal protection But hey what works for you works for you.Who am I to say.
I don't think anymore discussion is needed on this issue :deadhorse: have a good night

 

[joe sixpack]

thanks 45, dont worry im pretty good with my 92 i'll be just fine.

dont bother quoting massad or anyone else, i dont idolize them like gods like most others do.

i never disagreed that knifes was dangerous/deadly.. we're arguing two different topics here you just can't see it.

 

[45 Forever]

Wow saying massad does not know his stuff pretty much says it all Joe. I've never met anyone qualified to carry a gun that thinks massad is not a credible source of information. Like I said have a good night.

 

[joe sixpack]

there you go putting words in my mouth, i did'nt say he "did'nt know his stuff" i just dont idolize him, worship him like so many others.

you may do as you wish, just dont expect me to follow.

 

[45 Forever]

Joe from what I've seen your capable of putting enough words in your mouth I don't need to add anything. your quote "I didn't say he knows his stuff' but yet you disregard all his training is in it self a contradiction. Now by the rest of us who uses his training and respects his credentials. You say we idolize him as a god I don't think any one here has ever spoke those words so who is putting words in who's mouth. have a pleasant night. its been an interesting conversation.

 

[joe sixpack]

look it's fine if you wanna take everything he says as gospel.. not me.. i dont take anyones advice word for word.. i take what i agree with and i use that.. i leave the rest.

it's completely possible to not follow every thing the man says and at the same time not call him a moron.
some of the stuff he has said i agree with some i dont.

we live in a analog world 45, there is more to the world then just off and on, one extreme or the other.

if you can't understand that then i give up trying to explain it to you.