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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I sat down at my bench today with no real idea of what I was going to do. After a bit of searching through my stuff I decided to put some dies into one of my new turrets and load up 9pm for the first time in a long while. For whatever reason, I have more projectiles for 9 than anything else. Given it's price/round lately it's hardly worth it. Enough blabbing and on to my question.

I have some 130gr powder coated lrn bullets that I picked up, I don't think I've ever loaded them. I did some research and decided on 125-130 gr data using Tightgroup. 3.5 gr to be exact. Decided on about a 1.1 OAL and made a sample for the plunk test. I got out my pt111 which eats everything and pulled the barrel, dropped the round in. It failed, miserably. I had to push the round in to contact and then there was no way I was getting it to spin. So, I thought maybe my FCD was set too light, so I cranked that up and went again, still failed. At this point I have the fact set to a point where I would never shoot it, and it still won't plunk right.

I cleaned the chamber, no change. I grabbed a couple oal blanks that I made up for the xtreme 124's that I've loaded in the past. They made that satisfying thunk you want and spun like tops. I've compared the bullets profiles and they aren't that far off. Granted the coated ones are a pinch more round, but not much. I checked the diameter, they are .3555. The xtremes are .355.


Is it the bullet profile? If it is, I'll be selling a bunch of 130gr coated bullets in the classifieds soon.

Thanks!


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The diameter of a 9x19 bullet is 0.3555 - 0.0030, so you are right at max.
Check neck diameter: 0.3811
Case tapers to 0.3910 at web.
 

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May be put your caliper on the Xtreme round near the top of the case at the crimp and them on the coated bullet round. You'll probably find the difference there. Do you have another 9mm barrel to check it in also?
 

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If it's failing the plunk test, that tells me that something is obstructing the round as it chambers. Since a breech and barrel are a tubes of differing diameters I would guess it's the rifling that's causing the issue. Specifically where the projectile makes contact with it. depending of where on the ogive it's impacting, a deeper seating may solve the initial issue. Deeper seating means higher chamber pressure. I would load one up with no primer, no powder and a very light crimp and see how far you have to seat the projectile until it passes. then increase your crimp to what you select as standard crimping and retest. Save that as your master round with that projectile and adjust your load data down by a tenth of a grain or so.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
May be put your caliper on the Xtreme round near the top of the case at the crimp and them on the coated bullet round. You'll probably find the difference there. Do you have another 9mm barrel to check it in also?
That difference was minimal.

I ended up plunking them in my pt92 barrel and my db9 barrel they both plunked pretty well. But they were crimped beyond reasonable so I'll have to make up new tests and try again.

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Try seating one a little deeper and see if it seats. The bullet doesn't taper as much as the jacketed bullet.
I did two different seating depths one was far enough that I don't know if I would want to shoot it.

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
If it's failing the plunk test, that tells me that something is obstructing the round as it chambers. Since a breech and barrel are a tubes of differing diameters I would guess it's the rifling that's causing the issue. Specifically where the projectile makes contact with it. depending of where on the ogive it's impacting, a deeper seating may solve the initial issue. Deeper seating means higher chamber pressure. I would load one up with no primer, no powder and a very light crimp and see how far you have to seat the projectile until it passes. then increase your crimp to what you select as standard crimping and retest. Save that as your master round with that projectile and adjust your load data down by a tenth of a grain or so.
I agree, I think I'll just have to use the xtremes for the pt111 and the coated for the pt92. I'll save the factory stuff for the db9 since it's not designed for anything over 124 grain.

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It's just finding the right lead bullets for for guns
As my " 92 " and pt111 will use any thing I put in it also ( with in reason ) but my TH9 won't , The TH9 has rifleing to close to the chamber so a 124 LRN bullet won't pass the plunk and twist test
So now I use Blue Bullets 127gr LTC that fits all my 9mm
You just happened to pick a bullet that won't fit
 

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Have you checked with the bullet manufacturer for loading information for that bullet? Most have that listed somewhere on their website, OR try your Goggle FU by goggling the bullet manufacture caliber and bullet weight.


If all else fails and your life insurance is paid to date, then maybe:

Continue at your own risk:

The Olgive is different on the two bullets, the FMJ is more pointy (that's technical jargon ;) ) than the coated lead bullet. That means the pointy part will stick into the barrel further, without contacting the lands. Where as, the lead olgive contacts the lands earlier, and, no plunk. I ran into this same problem using flat points of the same weight as the FMJ's. I ended up using a shorter COAL.

Often when using a new to me bullet, I will bell a naked (no primer no powder) case, insert a projectile at the COAL, put it in the mag, mag in the gun and push the slide release down. This will allow the slide to seat the bullet, remove case and bullet and check COAL. Often I find land marks on the olgive which tells me that I need be another .005"-.010" less COAL. Next I go looking for a recipe for that COAL.

Remember the more bullet in the case, the less capacity the case has, therefore you will need to reduce the amount of powder you use.
THIS IS NOT PROPORTIONAL!!!
Nor for the faint of heart

And could lead to KER POW!!!!
Damaging you and/or your firearm
 

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Have you checked with the bullet manufacturer for loading information for that bullet? Most have that listed somewhere on their website, OR try your Goggle FU by goggling the bullet manufacture caliber and bullet weight.


If all else fails and your life insurance is paid to date, then maybe:

Continue at your own risk:

The Olgive is different on the two bullets, the FMJ is more pointy (that's technical jargon ;) ) than the coated lead bullet. That means the pointy part will stick into the barrel further, without contacting the lands. Where as, the lead olgive contacts the lands earlier, and, no plunk. I ran into this same problem using flat points of the same weight as the FMJ's. I ended up using a shorter COAL.

Often when using a new to me bullet, I will bell a naked (no primer no powder) case, insert a projectile at the COAL, put it in the mag, mag in the gun and push the slide release down. This will allow the slide to seat the bullet, remove case and bullet and check COAL. Often I find land marks on the olgive which tells me that I need be another .005"-.010" less COAL. Next I go looking for a recipe for that COAL.

Remember the more bullet in the case, the less capacity the case has, therefore you will need to reduce the amount of powder you use.
THIS IS NOT PROPORTIONAL!!!
Nor for the faint of heart

And could lead to KER POW!!!!
Damaging you and/or your firearm
I agree with you. I would look at the nose of the LRN bullet and see if any marks from contact with the lands in the barrel are present. The shorter-nosed jacketed bullet doesn't touch the lands. I'm thinking that the chamber might be a bit shorter in the 111. A caliper measurement of the chambers on all three pistols should identify the problem, if present.
 
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Just using the Taper Crimp formula: =0.355+(0.01*2)-0.004 = .371
Bullet Diameter + (twice the thickness of the brass at the mouth) - 0.004"

I have in the past measured a number of taper crimps on commercial ammo and came up with a taper crimp range of .373 (Min) to .367 (Max) and looking through my reloading notes, it says I taper crimp to .370". I also notice that Brian Pearce in Handloader magazine is taper crimping 9mm to .369".

Since you are pulling these anyway, I would run them through your FLS die again, just to be sure.
 

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Looks like you'e got Missouri Bullet Co. Small Ball:

Missouri Bullet Company

Note where it says to load to 1.08. And even that may be a tad too long. These will always pop up on various forums and it drives reloaders nuts. It's that short-fat-squatty ogive that's the problem.
 

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stupimlico, look at the difference between the Ogives on the powder coated lead bullet vs the FMJ. The FMJ ogive is longer and slenderer. I just happened upon SAAMI's latest book of specs from 2015. I'm gonna stop right here and say that handloaders need someone other than ammo-makers determining safety issues. There is no doubt that SAAMI shortened the chamber spec, and somehow that's better for safety? Really? When you have loads that worked just fine now being too short for some pistols and loads being fired slightly out of battery?

I'm not for sure as yet, and in another thread we saw the report of a members friend who fired a SIG P320 out of battery with what looked like Partizan ammo, judging by the PPU stamp on the rim. Are the M17s chambered likewise? Or do they conform to the NATO spec that was actually established with the European CIP standard. I certainly hope it was the latter. Personally, I don't and won't buy a 9 x 19mm that has a short throat. It's almost as if SAAMI is saying that we really don't want handloaders making better ammo than we can, so they shorten chambers and accordingly, factory loads are shorter today. Even Glock and their Gen 5 "Marksman" barrels are nothing more than shorter chambered barrels where accuracy can be enhanced by limiting the amount of Free-bore, or the distance for bullet-jump into the rifling. That's the same as the longer loads I make, but it greatly reduces the performance capability that you can handload to. In some cases with the appropriate slower burning powders, by loading longer, it allows for a higher powder charge with a longer OACL without increasing pressure. Then again, SAAMI has a long history of screwing up the 9 x 19mm that I saw happen in my time with the introduction of the +P designation. Many a handloader just assumed that data was underrated to the point of assuming that a higher charge could always be used, even though they might have been using a faster burning powder where a longer OACL just doesn't have the same ability to lower pressure.

Sorry for all the drift, but what is essentially happening is that your pistol's throat becomes something like a seating die that seats on the ogive. Unlike a seating die, you don't get an option.;)
 

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Try seating one a little deeper and see if it seats. The bullet doesn't taper as much as the jacketed bullet.
ahh --YEP!
Fat Black Bullet lives matter!!!
I seat all my finished projectiles to the weapon that I own that has the tightest shortest chambers.
Berrys, Extreme, Raniers all differ in taper even in the same weight it seems.
 
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I agree, I think I'll just have to use the xtremes for the pt111 and the coated for the pt92. I'll save the factory stuff for the db9 since it's not designed for anything over 124 grain.
I have a 45acp Witness that was giving me all sorts of fits trying to fire reloads in it. All sorts of FTF, FTE, not going into battery because the round didn't chamber all the way. I tried everything I could think of, even repeating some upon suggestions from different forum members. Nothing completely worked. I was using standard everyday Xtreme 200gr plated bullets. So with all that trouble I couldn't even begin to think what it would be like to try and run an oversized cast lead bullet in this gun.

The final solution to this was to use a Lee Carbide FCD to finish off the load. Don't know what the difference is because I cannot measure any difference. I'm not sending the barrel out for work which has been suggested and I'm not getting rid of the gun.
 
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I have a 45acp Witness that was giving me all sorts of fits trying to fire reloads in it. All sorts of FTF, FTE, not going into battery because the round didn't chamber all the way. I tried everything I could think of, even repeating some upon suggestions from different forum members. Nothing completely worked. I was using standard everyday Xtreme 200gr plated bullets. So with all that trouble I couldn't even begin to think what it would be like to try and run an oversized cast lead bullet in this gun.

The final solution to this was to use a Lee Carbide FCD to finish off the load. Don't know what the difference is because I cannot measure any difference. I'm not sending the barrel out for work which has been suggested and I'm not getting rid of the gun.
Sounds like your chamber might be tight at the front. Isn't the EXtreme plated .452"?

Sounds like the FCD swaged down the diameter of the case-neck.;)
 

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Sounds like your chamber might be tight at the front. Isn't the EXtreme plated .452"?

Sounds like the FCD swaged down the diameter of the case-neck.;)
The Xtreme 185gr and 200gr Flat Point are .451" but I was using both Xtreme 200gr RN and Berry's RN that are .452" and the extra .001 didn't make any difference that I could tell. If that is the case with swaging then it is hardly at all because there wasn't much felt resistance when running them up into the die on a single stage RCBS Jr3 press. I know the die is doing something, I just cannot tell what by measuring with my caliper.
 
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57K nailed it with the ogive. In my Caniks I can load plated Xtreme 124 rn and Berry's 124 rn to 1.130 on the other hand the old Acme 124 max is 1.090.Some CZ can only accommodate 1.060 with the old Acme. Xtreme target Hollow point 1.1 and Berry's HHP max is 1.1 as well. In my Caniks. Bullets shapes are all over the place, its far far more than weight.
ANd one best adjust their powder accordingly. Seating depth can be critical.
 
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