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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
After receiving my replacement SS M85 in lieu of a M650 with sever timing issues(After three trips to Miami), the SS M85 has failed after its first range trip:
Many types of ammo and snap caps are dragging on uneven surface areas across the breach face and back strap where clearances are too tight. The machining is uneven from what I can tell. One out of five cylinder bores are not locking causing cylinder roll. Of my three Taurus revolvers two used, one new all have failed. The first two where my fault, since I did not inspect them prior to delivery. The M617 had severe B/C clearance issues, which the shop that I purchased it from was able to work out, however the forcing cone was slightly damaged and the cylinder was scored from the F/C dragging over it. The Model 650 had severe timing issues (three trips to Miami, unfortunately the Gunsmiths at Taurus exacerbated the problem). The SS M85 passed the inspection (using the inspection instructions from this site) of both myself and gun shop owner, however, the feeler gage did not pick up on some of the uneven machined surface on the breach face and the back strap. The cylinder lock up wasn't the tightest out of the box but Taurus, Smith and Wesson and Ruger aren't designed to lock up super tight(although some do). All bores of the cylinder DID lock at purchase. After the binding presented itself at the range one of the five bores on the cylinder went south (weakest link) and will not lock up. I am assuming due to the pressures of the binding fighting the moving parts, especially when shooting the firearm. I thought maybe it was the cylinder lock albeit it is not the tightest it will lock up the other four bores. So it is doing its job accept for one. The cylinder rolling at the failed lock causes failure to fire and timing issues. Two symptoms making this firearm un-carriable which was the whole point. I know Taurus CS will be great, they always are. Taurus International in Miami has tried their best to make things right. Unfortunately it is hard to control the quality of a product that is manufactured in a emerging country with no transparency and from what I can only assume a differn't standard of quality control and approaches to manufacturing. I am not looking forwards to the logistics gamut, authoring more letters, paying FFL fees and chasing around FedEx since I work 7 days a week. The guys at the FedEx center actually know me by name and the only reason I see them is to ship back Taurus fire arms. One department in Miami that I have had some concerns with is the quality of the gun smithing. From what I have read here they CAN get it right. Unfortunately this has not been my experience. Hopefully that will change. If it does not I will simply send it back again and again and again, until they get it right or replace it. Hopefully with the new CEO restructuring, refining and streamlining their business practices/approaches they will realize fixing something right the first time, will save them (I am assuming) in the $100,000's in shipping alone. Especially if you're doing quality control warranty work for a product with as much liability as a firearm. I am assuming it would behoove you to get the fix right the first time since the main selling point of your product is the price point and the warranty. The warranty tends to loose it's value if the warranty work is poor. I am sure the cost of one firearm warranty ticket from CS, to logistics, Gunsmithing and then logistics again must be substantial for each firearm. Then repeating it, WOW. If you have above average amount of warranty work caused by malfunctions and then you duplicate it by inadequate repairs the cost must get astronomical. That is not including the cost of an unsatisfied customers, people can and will destroy your brand, especially firearms. One unsatisfied customer is not just one it is one to the power of how ever many people he or she talks to. The intangible costs can get ugly. Anyway... I am trying to rant with a higher EQ(emotional quotient) in the hopes that someone over there at Taurus in a key decision making role sees this. I do like the brand and have maintained Buddha like patience, however this will most likely be my last Taurus for a while. Other brands have great firearms that are hard to ignore. Price point is getting more and more competitive and S&W "ain't the only kid on the block". If have been eying the SP101's for quite some time and this M85 was going to be the remedy being the stand alone "old reliable" Taurus that I could strap on and foregetabout. This is not been the case...............Again???
 

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Sorry you got another lemon. I am also hoping the new management will get a grip on the lacking quality control.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Since I have spent about half my career doing research, when I am faced with an dilemma like the performance of this revolver, even though it is frustrating as hell once the cursing is over I go into solution mode. The one strength from getting these revolvers with issues is my learning curve with the revolvers has increased. Not saying I am a gunsmith but I have taken apart both my 617 and the 85 roughly ten to fifteen times a piece (obviously the 617 more than the 85) simply trouble shooting not necessarily changing things since I am not a gunsmith obviously. I did change the springs on the 617 but this seems common. No grinding or taking things out of tolerance etc. Anyway I picked up a Gun Smithing book by Patrick Sweeney. I am sure it is not the end all in gun smithing books but it is decent for trouble shooting. The issues with rotation I am experiencing is clearly "the hand". I checked the hand spring location. And yes you guessed it I managed to launch that little SOB into a parallel Universe. Being mildly OCD I actually found the little Ba%$#rd(my room is reeeaaal clean now LOL). Anyway, somehow I got it seating well. It still misses the spot on the rotation so the next protocol is to peen the ratchet stud on which the hand fails to carry up and get the hand and cylinder to lock. Here is where the frustration kicks in. I know what the fixes are, reducing the back strap areas (filing) and peening the the ratchet stud. Am I a gunsmith: nope. Is there a chance I will fubar it: yup. The Taurus warranty gauntlet is just that a gauntlet, after four times in the past six months, it is no fun especially for really busy people and you still have the caveat of getting a nominal gunsmith(I am sure there are good ones but...) who may be having a bad day and he decides to take it out on your gun becuase he is sitting in front of a mountain of work orders sick of his job and underpaid (if he looks at one more malfunctioning Taurus he is going to puke). OR I can take it to my shops gunsmith who is reputable(whew! hard to find a good revolver smith) but he charges $30 just to look at your gun and then from there we negotiate.

Anyone know how to peen a ratchet stud...........................?
 

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That sure does suck! My PT1911 and my Rossi .308 sure have been great shooters. I'm even considering a couple more Taurus purchases but probably wouldn't if I had that much trouble. Maybe you should tally up you shipping expenses and FFL fees and forward your post to Taurus. I don't see why they wouldn't offer some form of compensation if you can get it forwarded to the man at the top.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Since I have been spending an inordinate amount of time on the phone with Taurus CS I have developed some in roads. Some of my strengths are creating strategic alliances, conflict resolution and solutions oriented problem solving, mostly for small businesses. What I sense when I ask open ended question etc regarding operations and practices at Taruus International when on the phone with their employees is a company with tremendous opportunity for growth and success. That is one reasons I have stuck with them. I would give up any tangible monetary supplement for the ability to discuss with someone at an executive level some of my observations and what I would recommend. Most of the operational issues and quality concerns could be solved in a rather short time frame by consulting with their own employees and creating an open forum where they can also take part in the solutions not just implementing new approaches. As Toyota production systems did throughout their history and one of the reasons they're having trouble now is their unmanageable growth and disconnect with their internal structure. Most companies are sitting on all their solutions by not engaging their employees and challenging them to actively participate in decision making and giving them a personal stake in the success and overall performance of the company.
 

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Adeste.....rant all you want buddy. Seems like you keep getting the raw-end of the deal. I have had and do now have some good shooting Taurus handguns, but most of them I have had to fix when I could. I got lucky and only had to return one to Miami and it was replaced within 6-weeks....which did not seem to be a bad deal based on much I have heard. Problem was...I had to fix the replacement gun that was sent as a replacement.

Personally, I will not purchase another new Taurus handgun, but I love the ones I have and the ones that work. One would think they are now mostly a marketing company as opposed to a firearms company. I will purchase another Taurus, but only after I have had a day-or-so to look it over and fire it first. My business dealings with Miami are over. I hope I never have to deal with those people again....ever.
 

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