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I have a concealed carry license and carry daily with weekly practice at the range. With the recent spate of active shooter events, I have been trying to wrestle with what would be the best/preferred way to defend myself and someone with me if I were to find myself shopping in a Walmart when an active shooter decides to start shooting. If the shooter is not in my immediate area and there is an Exit close by, I'm exiting stage left! But what if the shooter is between me and the nearest Exit and hiding to wait for LE to arrive is not an option. How should the armed good guy engage the bad guy without getting shot by the responding police?
 

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IMO, there are too many variables that would decide this for you. I already said my opinion in the El Paso thread that under the circumstances where the shooter is using an assault weapon, your window of opportunity is very small. If you couldn't flee, then that kinda takes away your choices and you have to stand and fight.

I've been giving this a lot of thought since the shootings, and I'm done carrying too little gun. Texas being an open carry state, I'm going to be carrying at the very least my Shield 9mm with two backup mags. If I print, or somebody can tell I'm carrying, well I'm not too concerned anymore because I need to feel like I would have a chance if some idiot and his AK came into the store I happened to be frequenting.

I'll probably start carrying my 1911's more, as well. And my full sized Sig P226. I've got backup mags galore for all of these guns, and while I would still be messing my pants about having to go up against an assault rifle, I'd have a much better chance than if I was carrying my Ruger LCP with a spare mag. That much I know.
 

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A few months ago my wife and I went to a 'how to survive and active shoot' seminar put on by the Plano PD. Their advice was;
1. PRIOR to any incident and just as a matter of daily life MAINTAIN SITATIONAL AWARENESS. Glance left and right when walking, look around for anything 'odd' etc.. know your surroundings, where are the exits, where are potential laces to hide.
2. If an incident does happen, TAKE COVER. Secured cover if possible.
3. Determine where the gunfire is coming from and (their words) SEEK EGRESS. Meaning find a place to flee.
4. If it is not possible to flee, be prepared to LODGE IN PLACE if required. You may be there a while and if you are in a secured safe place DO NOT exit until the police find YOU.
5. Assuming you are armed, DO NOT ENGAGE THE ACTIVE SHOOTER. Follow the above protocols if possible. The extreme last resort is to engage, but if you must their recommendation was per police procedure for armed self defense: clear the area behind point of aim, engage close enough for any encounter to be meaningful, and shoot to kill. If successful, ground your weapon, raise your hands over your head and shout "CALL 911. CALL THE POLICE."

Or course the above is a list of recommendations. In reality, all hell would break loose and for civilians it would be mayhem.
 

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First, recall the famous quote from von Moltke: "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy." But, as I like to say, if you have a plan at least you have something to deviate from.

I would paraphrase the chef's post above in terms most often stated for this situation: Run, hide, fight. Handgun against long gun is not a fair fight and the odds are heavily stacked against you. And showing a firearm in the vicinity of an active shooting situation is a good way to get shot yourself, either from the police or another armed citizen who mistakes you for the villain. If your egress route is blocked, look for a good hideout. And stay until the police find you. That way you will know the situation is stable. Lastly, you fight. Better to die a lion than a sheep. And unless you have an absolutely 100% chance of success, don't take a passing shot. If it fails you are in the cross-hairs.

And, of course, recall the first paragraph above.
 

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Three things,
Engage
Retreat
Take cover and wait.
It would be fluid and situational. Know yourself and your limitations. Training will help with both if lacking knowing these things. When it happens you don't need to be figuring this out. Play it out while at the store next time.
What's your back stop if you engage.
What's a defendable position.
Best way to egress out of the front, garden, auto, stock room...
 

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It may not be the smart move, but if I were witnessing innocent people getting slaughtered and I had the ability to do something to stop it I think I would have to at least try. Right or wrong, I would forever count myself a coward if I had to live with the fact that I did nothing while innocent people were being killed. My best advice would be to shoot from a position behind cover, if it were available.
 

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A pistol vs. a rifle is hardly fair to begin with. Your tactics would have to come into play and personally, I'm about tacticed out. Currently carrying a 7 shot .380. I may want to rethink that.
Now, I will say this, when the shots start flying back toward them, they tend to run.
 

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Today the news has been showing the story of the soldier who guided a lot of kids out of that situation. His comment was I am a soldier and I have a CCL, I felt I should be doing something. Notice that heroes come in all colors.

The one thing I would add to what has already been said, is to engage from cover. Cover means something that protects you from fire, like a hard counter, wall, etc. Concealment hides you, but will not stop bullets, know the difference. Present as small a target to the shooter as possible. Most of these guys plan for no resistance, so you do have an initial advantage, make that first shot count. Don't show your weapon until you are ready to use it. If you can draw the bad guy out in the open, as you engage from cover, the advantage is yours and it tends to offset the advantage that a long gun gives. Also, your ammo will be limited, make every shot count.

BTW, suppression is something you do so your other guy can move in to take the objective. If you are by yourself, suppression does not work. Don't fire unless you have a target that you think you can hit. Let the BG waste his ammo, you need to make every shot count.
 

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There is no way to know what the sequence of events will be when something like this happens, but one thing is sure. Don’t have a firearm in your hand when the authorities arrive, because if you do, you’re likely to be shot.
 

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I have a concealed carry license and carry daily with weekly practice at the range. With the recent spate of active shooter events, I have been trying to wrestle with what would be the best/preferred way to defend myself and someone with me if I were to find myself shopping in a Walmart when an active shooter decides to start shooting. If the shooter is not in my immediate area and there is an Exit close by, I'm exiting stage left! But what if the shooter is between me and the nearest Exit and hiding to wait for LE to arrive is not an option. How should the armed good guy engage the bad guy without getting shot by the responding police?
In the circumstances you mentioned in the bolded part I would deal with the immediate threat in front of me first. Even if it takes the police a minute to arrive you could be dead in seconds. Then after the immediate threat is reduced I would find cover and not be holding a gun, have my hands open and visual, calling 911 to let the dispatcher know how I am dressed, where I'm at, what the active shooter looks like or how he is dressed, where the active shooter is or was at, which way the shooter went if he is on the move, etc.

If you have the opportunity to take it force on force training can be very helpful.
 

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I have a concealed carry license and carry daily with weekly practice at the range. With the recent spate of active shooter events, I have been trying to wrestle with what would be the best/preferred way to defend myself and someone with me if I were to find myself shopping in a Walmart when an active shooter decides to start shooting. If the shooter is not in my immediate area and there is an Exit close by, I'm exiting stage left! But what if the shooter is between me and the nearest Exit and hiding to wait for LE to arrive is not an option. How should the armed good guy engage the bad guy without getting shot by the responding police?

well first in PPA (Places of Public assembly) basically anywhere with a possible occupancy of 100 or more people, will be /should be required to have multiple exits, number will depend on the possible number of people allowed in the area.
so generally a department sized store will have many exits, and they should be marked with an illuminated sign, it is also against the law for these exits to be locked..
I always check for where the exits are located anytime I come onto a building.
as for the best means to handle what you describe IN MY OPINION is to take the threat out as quickly as you can, the best way to handle a law enforcement response is to call 911 and explain to the operator what has happened and ask for instructions as to what to do, the operator should be in contact with on scene and incoming police.
 

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Also, your ammo will be limited, make every shot count. Greenwolf70...hit it on the head. I have been carrying a spare mag for years, but a few months ago I started putting a pocket ammo holder in my rear pocket when I carry a small capacity firearm. Not a lot ,but 18 more rds might save my or the life of someone else. Just pray I would have the opportunity to load my mags for other shots if needed. SAM_1868.JPG
 

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I have a concealed carry license and carry daily with weekly practice at the range. With the recent spate of active shooter events, I have been trying to wrestle with what would be the best/preferred way to defend myself and someone with me if I were to find myself shopping in a Walmart when an active shooter decides to start shooting. If the shooter is not in my immediate area and there is an Exit close by, I'm exiting stage left! But what if the shooter is between me and the nearest Exit and hiding to wait for LE to arrive is not an option. How should the armed good guy engage the bad guy without getting shot by the responding police?
It is hard to say, but a few things you might want to consider.
Cover vs. concealment. Some stuff will hide you and that is it. Some stuff will hide you and maybe stop some of the incoming fire.

If you decide engaging is the right thing to do, have whoever is with you go somewhere else if at all possible. When you start shooting at them, they are in all likelihood going to shoot back at you unless you stop the show right away.

In many cases, these criminals are like other criminals. They are looking for victims not a fight, and they are rarely trained.

And while it might be the right thing to do, from what I understand, you are under no obligation to help anyone. That being said, if it is in the cards that you save my family.... thanks.


IMO, there are too many variables that would decide this for you. I already said my opinion in the El Paso thread that under the circumstances where the shooter is using an assault weapon, your window of opportunity is very small. If you couldn't flee, then that kinda takes away your choices and you have to stand and fight.

I've been giving this a lot of thought since the shootings, and I'm done carrying too little gun. Texas being an open carry state, I'm going to be carrying at the very least my Shield 9mm with two backup mags. If I print, or somebody can tell I'm carrying, well I'm not too concerned anymore because I need to feel like I would have a chance if some idiot and his AK came into the store I happened to be frequenting.

I'll probably start carrying my 1911's more, as well. And my full sized Sig P226. I've got backup mags galore for all of these guns, and while I would still be messing my pants about having to go up against an assault rifle, I'd have a much better chance than if I was carrying my Ruger LCP with a spare mag. That much I know.
Still wouldn't open carry. Don't wanna give someone like that a reason to pick you first. Grey man all the way.


It may not be the smart move, but if I were witnessing innocent people getting slaughtered and I had the ability to do something to stop it I think I would have to at least try. Right or wrong, I would forever count myself a coward if I had to live with the fact that I did nothing while innocent people were being killed. My best advice would be to shoot from a position behind cover, if it were available.
I have 2 kids. If I can nope them the hell out a fire exit that is going to be my first priority.


A pistol vs. a rifle is hardly fair to begin with. Your tactics would have to come into play and personally, I'm about tacticed out. Currently carrying a 7 shot .380. I may want to rethink that.
Now, I will say this, when the shots start flying back toward them, they tend to run.
There are a lot of stories of mass shooting being stopped by armed civilians. The plus side of all of this, is these people are rarely very skilled as criminals tend not to be.
 

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A few months ago my wife and I went to a 'how to survive and active shoot' seminar put on by the Plano PD. Their advice was;
1. PRIOR to any incident and just as a matter of daily life MAINTAIN SITATIONAL AWARENESS. Glance left and right when walking, look around for anything 'odd' etc.. know your surroundings, where are the exits, where are potential laces to hide.
2. If an incident does happen, TAKE COVER. Secured cover if possible.
3. Determine where the gunfire is coming from and (their words) SEEK EGRESS. Meaning find a place to flee.
4. If it is not possible to flee, be prepared to LODGE IN PLACE if required. You may be there a while and if you are in a secured safe place DO NOT exit until the police find YOU.
5. Assuming you are armed, DO NOT ENGAGE THE ACTIVE SHOOTER. Follow the above protocols if possible. The extreme last resort is to engage, but if you must their recommendation was per police procedure for armed self defense: clear the area behind point of aim, engage close enough for any encounter to be meaningful, and shoot to kill. If successful, ground your weapon, raise your hands over your head and shout "CALL 911. CALL THE POLICE."

Or course the above is a list of recommendations. In reality, all hell would break loose and for civilians it would be mayhem.

Okay, but before I raise my hands, I'll get my carry permit/DL out to hand the cops and I'll be sure he/she's the only perp, not necessarily in that order. Then, I'll grab MY phone and call 911. I won't disarm until I actually SEE a cop.
 
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Pistol isn't much of a defense against a rifle provided the rifle operator is using it properly.

Seem most times these guys are just doing "spray and pray". Looks like the El Paso shooter
was basically shooting from the hip unless I saw the wrong video. This was not a person with
close quarters rifle training. If you are proficient with a handgun, your odds went up.

I had to go to Walmart today. Couldn't go in without taking the 709 with me. Would have liked
bigger but the 709 drops in my pocket, loosely so I can get it out pretty quickly.

All the Best,
D. White
 

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^^^

Went to my local Walmart today and was carrying my Ruger LCPII w/ an extra mag (as always.) Have been shopping for a Marlin 336. $384 at Walmart everyday price. .. thin I'm going to go back in a few days and buy one.
 
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I've been giving this a lot of thought since the shootings, and I'm done carrying too little gun. Texas being an open carry state, I'm going to be carrying at the very least my Shield 9mm with two backup mags. If I print, or somebody can tell I'm carrying, well I'm not too concerned anymore because I need to feel like I would have a chance if some idiot and his AK came into the store I happened to be frequenting.

I'll probably start carrying my 1911's more, as well. And my full sized Sig P226. I've got backup mags galore for all of these guns, and while I would still be messing my pants about having to go up against an assault rifle, I'd have a much better chance than if I was carrying my Ruger LCP with a spare mag. That much I know.
and

^^^

Went to my local Walmart today and was carrying my Ruger LCPII w/ an extra mag (as always.) Have been shopping for a Marlin 336. $384 at Walmart everyday price. .. thin I'm going to go back in a few days and buy one.
This is a timely topic, regarding the LCP or LCP II, as I was just talking with someone who carries one in the summer, and a bigger gun in the winter. He can put his LCP in one of his pockets. Since the mass shootings he's expressed to me whether he should carry his compact nine full time, but he doesn't want to. He can shoot the LCP pretty good at distances 10 yards or shorter, but for him 15 is the limit at which he can reliably get effective hits. He's tried the LCP II and pretty much the same. The main problem for him is the short sight radius. I told him that as far as defensive gun usages in general, statistically the old FBI stat's are probably still right, that most shootings (plain robberies or assaults) 90% are 7 yds or less, and half are 3 yds or less. For those situations an LCP could be the right tool for the job if you practice with it.

Despite the recent news statistically the average person has about the same chance of being in a mass shooting as winning the lotto. If however a mass shooting was a concern definitely take a larger gun, because IF you have to shoot you might have to shoot from longer distances than that. In addition some mass shooters wear body armor, so if you have to shoot your target areas are limited. Whatever you carry you need to be able to get accurate hits. Mass shooters have the luxury of spray and pray if needed and have lots of rounds, law abiding carriers usually don't and are responsible if their rounds hit innocent people.
 

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This is a timely topic, regarding the LCP or LCP II, as I was just talking with someone who carries one in the summer, and a bigger gun in the winter. He can put his LCP in one of his pockets. Since the mass shootings he's expressed to me whether he should carry his compact nine full time, but he doesn't want to. He can shoot the LCP pretty good at distances 10 yards or shorter, but for him 15 is the limit at which he can reliably get effective hits. He's tried the LCP II and pretty much the same. The main problem for him is the short sight radius. I told him that as far as defensive gun usages in general, statistically the old FBI stat's are probably still right, that most shootings (plain robberies or assaults) 90% are 7 yds or less, and half are 3 yds or less. For those situations an LCP could be the right tool for the job if you practice with it.

Despite the recent news statistically the average person has about the same chance of being in a mass shooting as winning the lotto. If however a mass shooting was a concern definitely take a larger gun, because IF you have to shoot you might have to shoot from longer distances than that. In addition some mass shooters wear body armor, so if you have to shoot your target areas are limited. Whatever you carry you need to be able to get accurate hits. Mass shooters have the luxury of spray and pray if needed and have lots of rounds, law abiding carriers usually don't and are responsible if their rounds hit innocent people.
A couple of things....first, if carrying a LCP makes you feel fine when a mall terrorist unloads with his AK-47, then thats great. I own an LCP, and if I had that in my pocket and had to go up against an AK-47, I'd be seriously wishing I had taken my carry duties a little more seriously that day when I rolled out of bed. And, I wouldn't throw around that lotto statement with the people who went through the situation in El Paso or Dayton. Or any of the other increasing situations where a seriously misguided or completely insane shooter decides he wants to see how many people he can kill.
 

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If you can't hit past 10 yards and you want to carry as a defense against a BG with a rifle, I'd suggest a lot more practice. First of all, seek cover. Second, if you have to shoot beyond your known effective range, seek a rest for the gun. Everyone will shoot better with the gun rested over something solid.
 

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Well of course given the circumstances, as handguns go one could carry a MagRes Desert Eagle 50AE with a spare mag. It'll get the job done at any range and it pretty much would only take one appropriately placed round to stop the threat. Heck, you could probably hit a BG in the foot and remove most of his lower leg. But, you know, like, that doesn't conceal too well and can be a bit weighty when carried regularly on the belt. So I guess (as always) it comes back to carrying what works for you in the caliber that works for you. In the Texas summer its an LCPII. In the winter its the PT111G2. So there.
 
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