[piratesailor]

to stop a threat?

Let me preface this with "THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION ABOUT CALIBER".

My wife and I routinely attend training by professionals in the use of guns (pistols and rifles), tactics, and medical.

Recently we attended a course where the instructor quoted a DOJ report that it took on average 8 rounds to stop a threat. I have not been able to find the reports myself but basic research shows that yes, there are many shots fired to stop a threat no matter if the person is a LEO, Military or Civilian. Rarely is it a one stop shot. He also sited reports that there are usually two BG in a majority number of cases.

I carry 13+1 on a daily basis and no extra mag. I've been thinking about an extra mag now.

I'm a very good shot, take quite a bit of training, as I've said, and practice under stress situation but this has me thinking.

I thought it would be a good topic for discussion. Thoughts?

Again, this is not a caliber discussion!!!

 

[Smokewagon]

Shoot until the bad guy is no longer threatening. If that requires a reload, and your able to, then do that too.

 

[jbtty]

+1 on what Smokewagon said.

 

[GreenWolf70]

LOL, the reason the DOJ report is so high is because they are counting misses. I heard the average for the LEO community in general is something like 85% of all shots are misses. And if you are throwing in the military that really scews the average because we do something called suppressive fire, where we provide volume of fire to SUPPRESS the enemy's ability to return fire, or move, while another of our elements maneuvers. And I think if there is more than one LEO on the scene, and they are taking fire, they attempt to do the same.

Now in a SD situation I think it is completely different circumstances. My Dad was pretty old school, police trained reservist, and a WWII vet, his philosophy (because there was rarely more than one assailant at that time) was to empty the gun into the BG. He wanted to make sure the BG was dead because dead men can't come back and dead men can't sue (again this was the Twentieth Century), maybe that has changed with multiple assailants and civil lawsuits by BG family. I suspect the underlying SD/HD goals of survive and hold out until the Cavalry arrives still apply and should determine your defensive plans.

Now if you are strictly talking taking down a single assailant, I would say your objective is to first get them down. So if this tough guy has already taken a double tap to the chest and is still coming, shoot him in the leg for a mobility kill. A stationary opponent is much easier to finish than a mobile one. In any case, once a tough guy is off his feet, it is much harder for him to continue the fight, so don't continue to pump rounds in his chest (he may have a vest on). Don't keep doing the same thing and expects different results, change your aimpoint, or tactics, or both. The real answer to your original question is as many shots as it takes.

The other thing is you, unless you have been in one or two fire fights, you don't know how you are going to react under stress. Training helps, but that adrenalin burst that come with the "Fight or Flight Response" is not something you can simulate, and as many LEO have found out accuracy usually suffers.

 

[mingaa]

I've seen a lot of stats about how few shots it takes to end an 'incident' - that may be true, 1 shot and BG runs. I prepare for the worst case scenario -well maybe not really or I'd be driving an Abrams A-1.

But what has already been stated is sound advise. One needs to have what it takes (in firepower and skill) to neutralize the threat and in today's world of multiple attackers and meth heads it would be unrealistic / unwise to walk around with a derringer tucked in your vest.

I always carry a second mag (sometimes more with smaller capacity guns) - firepower, yes but failures happen too. You are threatened, you draw - the baseplate of your inserted mag pops off/breaks and 13 rounds of your best SD ammo are laying at your feet. With mag#2 you fire the one in the chamber as you go for mag #2 and a well practiced reload. With 1 mag you have one shot - the one in the chamber - hopefully that hits home AND you have other SD means at your disposal - spray, knife, baton OR some truly bad azz running shoes...

 

[Denton]

Years ago, I took a class called "Street Survival" which was only given to those in the L.E. community. The teaching was to continue to put rounds into the body until you trained the body to be still.

For a 9mm, that would be approximately two magazines. For a .45, just wear a T-Shirt stating you are carrying a PT 145.

*Sorry, couldn't resist! *

 

[piratesailor]

Actually the instructor said specifically it was hits, not shots fired or misses. Yes, that would change the dynamics considerably.

I agree that you shoot until they are done. Threat removed either dead or incapacitated to the point of no longer being a threat.

I actually have been in a fire fight as a civilian and do know the the rush of adrenaline. That's why I train as I know what happens in those situations.

Yup, extra mag for me from now on... or the tshirt!!!

 

[Denton]

I say that, but am about to go get a bank check and the LGS' information so I can get a *gasp!* pt 709.

 

[dbeardslee]

I just read this article yesterday on Guns America. There's some interesting ideas about number of rounds needed - The Center Mass Myth

 

[TexasAviator]

The simple answer I think is like Smoke said, until the threat is stopped.

How many rounds that will take varies just like humans and situations vary.

For me personally capacity isn't a big concern except when it comes to misses. Like Greenwolf said its about hits not misses and if you have never been in that situation you don't know how you will react. I would not feel under armed with 6 rounds of .357 or two 12 ga slugs or 00 Buck shells. From my understanding the average self defence distance is pretty close range. But I can see the argument for more rounds on hand as well.

The question I would ask is will you have time to do a mag change? How fast can you get the spare mag out of your pocket, mag pouch whatever and will you have the time to do that in a SD situation? In my opinion, I am not a cop, I will not be taking cover and trying to hold a suspect there, my goal is to stop the threat and if thats not possible get away or do what I can to hold out until the cavalry comes riding over the hill. So in my opinion I wouldn't have the time to have to worry about that. That said I think a spare mag is a good thing if it's a semi auto, but it is not something would ever count on having to use. Just my two cents.

I have never been in a situation, fortunately, to see if I had enough rounds and hopefully never will. I've been in SD situations, just never with a firearm.

 

[mingaa]

I say that, but am about to go get a bank check and the LGS' information so I can get a *gasp!* pt 709.

Try the stock sights - see what you can do with them. After a lot of screwing around I wish I'd put Advantage Tactical sights on mine day 1 but, hindsight is 20/20. The rear windage is adjustable and locks ( unlike stock) and the front elevation is set with shims. Red in front, white in back was the word from the co-owner. He was right.

i may shoot mine in a BUG IDPA match Sat. - something that I would NOT have done before.

 

[ccviper]

+1 to what has already been said. Shoot until the threat is no more

 

[piratesailor]

I just read this article yesterday on Guns America. There's some interesting ideas about number of rounds needed - The Center Mass Myth

interesting article. Thanks.

 

[TexTwister]

Personally, I do not think you can have a discussion about this subject without taking caliber into account. People talk about counting how many misses you fire and for some, caliber plays a huge roll in being able to control a gun. It also plays a roll in stopping power and penetration. If you can stop an attacker in one shot with a .22, that is generally luck. If you can stop an attacker in 1 shot with a .45, that is generally accuracy. That is all I am saying about caliber in this thread. Sorry for bringing up caliber.

 

[Marinevietvet]

to stop a threat?

Let me preface this with "THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION ABOUT CALIBER".

My wife and I routinely attend training by professionals in the use of guns (pistols and rifles), tactics, and medical.

Recently we attended a course where the instructor quoted a DOJ report that it took on average 8 rounds to stop a threat. I have not been able to find the reports myself but basic research shows that yes, there are many shots fired to stop a threat no matter if the person is a LEO, Military or Civilian. Rarely is it a one stop shot. He also sited reports that there are usually two BG in a majority number of cases.

I carry 13+1 on a daily basis and no extra mag. I've been thinking about an extra mag now.

I'm a very good shot, take quite a bit of training, as I've said, and practice under stress situation but this has me thinking.

I thought it would be a good topic for discussion. Thoughts?

Again, this is not a caliber discussion!!!

How many rounds to stop a threat? No one can answer that precisely until and if the need arises. No two situations will be exactly alike.

Any guesses are just that-guesses. "What ifs" or "I'd do this or that" are useless in the real world.

JMO.

 

[dbeardslee]

How many rounds to stop a threat? No one can answer that precisely until and if the need arises. No two situations will be exactly alike.

Any guesses are just that-guesses. "What ifs" or "I'd do this or that" are useless in the real world.

JMO.

I've gotta disagree on this. Military training is all about 'what ifs' (contingencies) and 'I'd do this or that' (actions at the objective, etc.). If it was useless there would be no such thing as a seven paragraph op order. It's good to have a plan, but a plan is only a framework for you to hang your actions on. It's good to think about things in advance of an actual confrontation - cause your 'thinker' probably won't be working as well as normal under high pressure conditions.

And part of that is having an idea of what you can expect out of different types of hardware. It's about how you can reasonably expect yourself and your equipment to perform. Of course when the fecal matter strikes the oscillating device, all bets are off. But preparing yourself in advance with the right equipment and mindset could make the difference between survival and a cold drawer in the morgue.

 

[JHPRICE]

I dont know i carry a back up mag for my 1911 compact holds same 8 as the pistol. Round count needs to be on efective rounds not total shot
miami police officers only hit any thing 17% of the time in 1300 rounds shot in a shooting situation. The Fbi has completely changed there training also due to out of 500 officers who have died in gun fights 65% were killed in less than 10 feet f and 15 % more in less than 20 feet I read this in an article and my numbers may be off a little on the fbi but the issue is most self defense comes in less than 7 yards and reloading during that distance would be tough to do.

jhp
my classes teach take out the mobility ist shot to leg or hip then 2 to chest or head is what i practice

 

[kruizer]

It would on take one if your aim is good and you stay cool.

 

[Marinevietvet]

I've gotta disagree on this. Military training is all about 'what ifs' (contingencies) and 'I'd do this or that' (actions at the objective, etc.). If it was useless there would be no such thing as a seven paragraph op order. It's good to have a plan, but a plan is only a framework for you to hang your actions on. It's good to think about things in advance of an actual confrontation - cause your 'thinker' probably won't be working as well as normal under high pressure conditions.

And part of that is having an idea of what you can expect out of different types of hardware. It's about how you can reasonably expect yourself and your equipment to perform. Of course when the fecal matter strikes the oscillating device, all bets are off. But preparing yourself in advance with the right equipment and mindset could make the difference between survival and a cold drawer in the morgue.

I can't disagree with anything you wrote.

Planning and training are important but all I'm saying is those plans and preparations usually become meaningless once incoming rounds start. Shooting at a paper target that doesn't shoot back is not real world.

I can only speak from personal experience however. Few train harder than Marines but once the party starts we find out the importance of being able to improvise and adjust. You can't learn those two things from any type of formal training.

All this is just my opinion of course and in no way diminishes or negates the opinions of others.

 

[mingaa]

I'd recommend shooting IDPA. Speed, accuracy, cover & tactics. Take away - the muscle memory (and improved state of mind) of active shooting situations WITH reloads and cover garments. On and on...