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I've got a Mil Pro i just can't shoot very well. I've had two serious pistol experts shoot it, and they could do quite well if they took their time. Everybody else I've ever had shoot it, from beginner to advanced, has been unable to get a 6" group from 7 yards with most of the 10 rounds. Including me. My pistol technique is pretty good, it's gotten to the point that people aren't correcting me all the time. I'm very careful about my trigger pull. I can shoot a 6" group at 7 yards with pretty much every other pistol I've ever tried. Even a North American mini revolver. And I've had plenty of practice: I OWN THIS GUN and have put almost 1000 rounds through it.

Has anybody figured out the big secret?

dubious
 

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Have you shot this off of a pistol bench or out of a shooting vice ? If you shot off a bench, and are still inconsistent, your trigger pull may be too much for YOU. Try dry firing on the bench and see if the gun moves when the trigger breaks. Have you had your trigger pull tested ? Is it high compared to Taurus spec ? If it is high, I would send it back to Taurus. Their trigger efforts are really heavy on these compacts due to paranoid lawyers.

Any noticable slop in the barrel in the end of the slide ?
 

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Mine is not a pt 111, but rather a pt 140, and I can shoot it pretty accurately. Two and a half inch groups at 7 yards is fairly common. The fact that some experienced shooters can get it to shoot well, tells me that the gun has decent innate accuracy.
Many things can cause you to shoot it inaccurately. Are you getting a good two handed grip, proper breathing, and squeezing the trigger, not pulling it? Have you developed a flinch? These are things that can be corrected by dry firing. Practice is really key.
 

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Try shooting it with your week hand. This may sound silly, but hey you'll never know unless you try. By nature I'm left handed, but recently (and with my 8 sights) I've discovered that I can shoot it with more accuracy in my right hand.

My shooting buddy (army dog) who is used to the traditional sights had the same problem you did on his PT1911. He (on the other hand) got close to the target, lined up properly and shot. When he realized where he needed to adjust himself, he just took some paces back and repeated the process.
 

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My groups are more than 1ft at 7 yards. I did way better with the glock 26 I rented at the range one time with 100 rounds.

I've got a less exaggerated karate stance. I'm holding my right arm forward, elbow tucked in. With this gun, I've had best success with a VERY strong arm position. I basically push forward with my right arm and pull back with my left hand until my hands start to shake from the tension. Then I ease off a little bit until the shakes stop and I'm in position. Follow through is always on my mind.

In my right hand, the web between thumb and hand has a little fold in it from pushing up against the hand grip. The gun is a little small for my hand, but I keep the pinky on the extension. I've tried putting the pink below the extension (as per someone's suggestion) but that was very awkward. I use the very tip of my trigger finger to pull the heavy trigger. I've practiced this at home enough that I'm not dropping the gun with snapcaps... but I might be doing it when I'm shooting live rounds... I'm not sure.

My left hand is wrapped around my right hand just underneath trigger guard, with my left index finger on the trigger guard.

I haven't been paying much attention to my thumbs, but I just saw this youtube video of pistol instruction by Todd Jarret:

He suggests pointing your thumbs in line with your arms and at the target. I'm going to try that next time I go down to range.

I understand that with the Heine sights you get the dots on top of each other and the blades lined up and aim on the white dot. However, just for the sake of learning with this thing and improving accuracy , I've been using a 6 o'clock point of aim and get the orange sticker target lined up just above the front post dot. It's fine if I'm shooting low because of this... I'm interested in grouping 6" first, then I'll adjust my sight technique for combat.

I've shot pistols in front of quite a few experts and none of them have noticed anything terribly wrong with my technique... so whatever I'm doing wrong must be subtle.


Also, I did post this on thehighroad.org too... check it out: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=283633

Ok thanks guys!
 

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Yay! Jkwas fixed my gun! Well.. he fixed me. Well... he fixed my pinky! Thanks! I got consistent 6" or less 10 shot groups from 7 yards today. I read the "Target Shooting Canada: Gripping the Pistol" article. http://www.targetshooting.ca/train_grip.htm

I realize now that I was gripping to hard with my pinky. Now I know that I need to grip mainly with my middle finger, then support that with my ring finger. Today I tried shooting with my pinky below the extension and it corrected my problem. Now I'm deadly accurate! Next time, I should have those hogue grips and I'll see if I can still hold my pinky on there... but gently. My hands may just be too big for this gun... but I'm working it out.
 

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Interesting. I've always preferred compacts over full-sized guns - matter of taste mostly, but it *could* be that the shorter grips suit my grip style. The longer grip gives my pinkies too much to do, so-to-speak.
 

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dubius,
I just bought a PT111. A friend of mine at the range and myself both shot 6 inch
groups at 25 yards with this gun. We were usin Sellier & Bellot ammo bought at Cabela's.
We were leaning our hands on the bench not the gun. I was amazed at how well this little
gun shot. I couldn't get a group this good with my G17. Try different ammo as well as everything
else. My S&W M&P shoots about a 7 inch group with Winchester White Box at 25 yards. It shoots
about a 2 to 3 inch group with the S&B ammo.
Zeke
 

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Ok, not a secret here!
IF anyone can shoot YOUR weapon better than you can then you probally need instruction on proper shooting style that includes many areas of improvement!
the other people are not waving a magic wand over the pistol to make it more accurate!
look up a good reputable instructor and give him/her some of that money that you are wasting shooting practice rounds and continuing to do things wrong.
sorry this was "Tough love" but someone had to say it.
 

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My only question is why would you expect a gun with a touch over 3" barrel that basic design the barrel will move with every shot to be dead on accurate at 25 yards or 75'. The very design of a compact semi auto pistol will make it a none contender as a target shooter. Target shooting is always best from a longer fixed barrel gun be it a target pistol or rifle. The PT 111 is designed for self defense most of which is done in less than 7 yards or 21 feet. At that distance I can group shots with in a couple of inches and have never expected it to shot accurately at longer distance.
 

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I had a terrible time with my PT Mil Pro. Couldn't get consistant shots on target....

Went through a lot of learning, taking advice from fellow members, etc.....

Then saw a TV show about shooting, and the lesson was "Dominant Eye."

Place your finger on an object 20 feet away from you. Then close your left eye (thusly aiming with your right eye). If your finger appears to move to the left, your are "left-eye-dominant."

Keeping your finger on the object, close your right eye, if your finger stays on target, this backs up your first result. You are "left-eye-dominant."

At the range, apply this. Aim with your right eye, fire, and check your results. Then, aim with your left eye, fire, and compare results.
 

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I agree with most of what's been posted as advice. There is also this that might come in handy. There are links within the links. Please go through them.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=6717.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=29950.0
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=29641.0

There's this also:
« on: February 05, 2010, 12:21:41 AM » Quote Modify Remove Split Topic

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These compact pistols are a finicky lot and no two examples of the same kind shoot or behave exactly alike.

Glad to hear that it was an ammo problem. Since there are so many factors to consider that's why the in-deep analysis even if it wasn't the operator.

No way to totally know since we are not there to observe whats going on.

What's written below is taken from a PT145 thread, but this can be true for any compact/subcompact gun, caliber, and the ammo.

Smaller guns are more finicky about ammo types than their bigger full size brethren.

Example: Para Ordnance Warthog comes to mind. When it first came out there were a lot of reliability problems and Para could not give them away. Most went into storage.All of this was because of reliability problems having to do with bullet shape,weight, and the fact that hardball of certain types were all that would feed through it. Fast forward almost a decade and the Warthog was reintroduced though it wasn't marketed that way.

Whether these pistols were reworked or not I am not sure of. They are back out and heavily marketed.Reliability does not seem to be the issue anymore.

Being bulky through the grips didn't help sell the pistol.Double stack .45ACP don't you know. Trying to get a solid grip and carrying the pistol CCW were also strikes against an otherwise decent design.

Mass Ayoob,Chuck Karwan, and Clint Smith have documented the troubles of getting small ,compact, or sub compact.45ACP pistols to work well under most conditions.

Engineering the pistols to work has and have been major problems. Physics is one of the main problems. Whether it's the slide mass, recoil springs,firing pins weight and mass,feed ramp angle,or other factors there is only so much that can be done.

Colt ran into troubles with the Officers ACP 1911 for a lot of the same reasons stated above.Took a few years to work the bugs out and make it a reliable pistol. Gunsmiths made a fortune having to tweak compact 1911's and traditional DA/SA semi autos.

So while things have improved somewhat over the years there are still problems finding the right balance for proper fit and function. And there are a few trade offs for going with smaller guns. Parameters for these just are not that forgiving.

The one compact .45ACP pistol that seemed to work with just about any bullet type or shape was ironically the Star PD.

So expect to have to put some effort and experimentation into reliable loads for these smaller pistols regardless of caliber if they are a major one for self defense.

No mistake. It's because of these very things that this develops in these and other pistols. Balancing the parts and types of springs, this includes the strength of those springs, are part of the engineering problems.

I need to clarify this better. What was being said was that there are a lot of factors that go into this and there are compromises on just how and what can be put into a pistol design.

There are trade offs and no free lunch anywhere along the line with this.

With lead free or practically lead free primers being mandated on quite a few types of ammo, trying to find a happy medium and a spring strong enough to get the firing pin to set off these primers is a real chore.

Reduced size guns means that the spring power is going to have to be compromised somewhere along the line. The smaller the pistol the harder it is to come up with parts that can do what full size parts can do.

Sometimes primers are too hard, too soft,or the lead free primers will not give consistent performance.

While the lead free stuff is getting better there is still much room for consistent performance to be established.

This was the intent of the post. Trying to cover all the physics and engineering aspects in one post without trying to get long winded.

When making compact pistols there are a lot of obstacles to overcome. All that can be done for most of these is compromises with some shortcomings we all may need to learn to live with.

Could be why I am a revolver person for the most part. Things are a bit more simpler with the revolvers all the way around despite the sizes. This is subjective and an opinion, but what has been observed. Smiley

Below are some related items that others may want to consider. Some of this is already known by most, but can get overlooked or forgotten easily. It happens to all of us at sometime.

First of all the dead on is correct as is. The target is supposed to be fuzzy and the sights clear just like the pictures show. Or should. If you sight properly then the bullets will impact where they are supposed to without seeing the tiny bulls eye. That's the way it works and always has.
If a shooter does what is shown in the pictures properly then they will hit properly using either type of shooting.

For some 6 o'clock works well, but this is not normally technique used for a defense handgun. Expecting very tiny little groups to be in a target with pistols and revolvers that are not target grade is ludicrous at best.
Dead on is normally taught for defense weapons.

One does shoot the best they can, but expecting one ragged hole or target quality is again not consistent with reality. Guns that are target grade normally have ammo and firearms designed for more consistent hitting the same spot in very tight little groups. There are exceptions.

Engineering is more precise ballistically for the ammo and the fit and function of the target pieces used to do this with. Tolerances are tight all across the board.The amount of research and development that goes into target grade guns is a lot more effort than what goes into defense pistols or revolvers.

For defense accuracy is needed as well. However the precision with which shots can be placed is not on par realistically with target grade guns. Otherwise target grade guns are all one could or would buy. Expense would put this out of a majority of civilians reach.

Not under adrenaline dump,extreme stress and duress, fine motor skill loss, heart pounding, fight or flight situations is one going to realistically calmly shoot the human target/s as if on picnic and out for relaxation.

Special units use target grade pistols and revolvers because of the need to be more precise with their shots than civilians. They are trained to a high degree most civilians will never match or be able to for expense or reasons of time. The special unit operators learn to do this under stress, shoot amounts of ammo at prodigious rates, train incessantly,and have budgets to allow for this. Civilians normally don't have access to this sort of thing.

http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=2418.0

The above link deals with some of the vagaries that go into shooting defense sidearms.

Expense,harsh operating conditions, harsh environments, reliable fit and function,as well as humans being bigger targets, mean that gun makers have to compromise and reach a level of ability for the gun to deliver what is normally accepted "combat accuracy" at reasonable combat ranges for sidearms. Gun makers have done that.


POI will very if a 6 o'clock hold is used vs. a dead on sight picture.Depends on how you zero the gun or shoot it as well.
Target shooters are well served by the 6 o'clock hold. Defense shooters are not.
Most shooting instructors or schools use the dead on for defense teaching. Not written in stone.

There are many factors and vagaries that have been gone over again and again where shooters were having troubles.

Could be the culmination of a number of things and we staff and members are not there to see each person on a case by case basis shoot. Nor the conditions, nor do we see the stance ,grip,or trigger follow through. wish we could, but realistically can't.

So we advise the best we can covering practically ALL the factors we can.Whether operator error or inexperience,real gun troubles, intangibles we cannot know about, or a combination of any of the above described factors,we can only surmise what is going on.

Even bullet weight, kind of ammo,brand of ammo, or even what batch are factors that come into play here.

Then there is the fact the fixed sighted guns,especially compact or sub-compacts, are hard to regulate the sight on. Doesn't matter what brand,make ,or model by any company, this is true for all of them. Many of the factors in the link come into play here.So do others too numerous to mention.

With all that said, the companies do the best they can with what they have.

Fixed sighted guns are going to shoot high,low,left right. Even the sights on alike samples will not have the same POI. These are massed produced non-target guns at price rates the regular buying public can afford. Some more expensive than others. High price is not and indicator of quality. Many like to think so but I digress.
Ever since firearms were invented fixed sights rarely hit perfectly to point of aim. Too many factors and vagaries enter in.

If one has a fixed sighted gun one has to take the time to experiment to find the best combo of ammo for fit,function,reliability, and for accuracy. POI does figure in, but is not the most important factor. Other wise hardball or target ammo of any shape would do.

One gets to the nearest POI that is as close to dead center as possible, but for many reasons already stated that may not be realistic. One will have to learn where to put the sights for dead center hits and then learn to live with that.

Experimenting with the factors described above takes time,dedication and experience. Each trip to the range need to have a goal other than just putting ammo downrange or shooting tight groups. There are a lot of factors in defense shooting that need to be addressed and kept up with to be proficient.

All this is covered somewhere within the forums here and gets discussed time and time again.

So yes, it is possible the guns shoot low.It is also operator usage and the many factors in HOW they go about shooting that come into play. This as well as the factors of the gun,ammo,and environment. Even humidity,cold, and heat play into this.

There are a plethora of new shooters here at this forum. New even to the type of guns or gun they shoot. Have to learn the vagaries and performance abilities of gun ammo, and the person. This holds true for even those who shoot regularly and have experience with most or all types of firearms. Even the old vet shooters have things to learn and find out. We never stop learning nor gaining experience.

So coming in here and picking on the example pictures when there are so many factors seems silly to a degree. There may be better pictures and examples describing this. There might not be too.

Shooting low can be the gun... and it can be the shooter.. or the ammo, or other factors. Combinations of factors also as has been seen.

Same goes for shooting too high,low, or somewhere in between.
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=2872.msg21251#msg21251

Drummin_man62 had the right idea for those of us who are having sight issues and it is the user for the most part. Even us so called shooting vets can have an off day or develop bad habits. Hard to unlearn, too. Cheesy

There are a lot of things to consider.

Mentoring by another qualified individual who can use constructive criticism is a good way to help get to proficiency. Then staying at that level of proficiency is another thing. Smiley

Sights can be changed if need be and replaced by others. Then there are those of us who make due and make minor corrections with our fixed sights to hit the center.

Did this with revolvers and learned where,even at long range (100-200 yards) where to hold to get dead center hits with certain specimens of handgun. Not all, just a few.
This with fixed sights.

It is realistic to expect to hit the general target as well as we can. Perfection and total precision will not happen for the most part with combat handguns. Some can get to that level. Some combat handguns are that precise, but are the exception rather than the rule. They will not necessarily be the majority.

If you see the target clearly the sight very well may be too fuzzy for good work. Even if you can't see the tiny bulls-eye, the bullets will hit the mark.

This also depends on range and realistic targets for realistic work for that particular gun.

Members and staff try to provide adequate info and advice. I think they do that at a very competent level.
Figured this all needed to be said or covered.

There are exceptions to this. For example, there are some of us who have regular revolvers or pistols that shoot groups that are up there with target grade quality sidearms. Cherish those dearly if you have pistols or revolvers that can one hole for many shots it or shoot ragged little groups at medium to long range.
 

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Lots of posts ...

MilPros are not target guns and the sights are combat sights, not target sights. Once you accept that the rest is easy.

Simply put, IGNORE THE DOTS!

Put the top of the front sight even with the top of the rear sight and then put that point in the middle of your target.

Works like a charm.
 

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I agree , when the owners of these defesively designed firearms ( regardless of manufacture) get over the thought of knocking a X ring out of a paper target and get down to putting shots in the kill zone of a silhoette the better off they will be!
IF you want to shoot bullseyes then get your self a target grade weapon, then be willing to put out a lot of time, money and practice to become good enough to shoot like you want to.
I firmly belive that every weapon that i have has the potential to be a lot more accurate than i am.
OH, wait did i just admit that I am the problem , not my weapon?
that can't be right!
 

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I've had a pt 111 mil pro for about two years now and at first I was shooting low and left. About the 3rd time out at the range an FBI agent was watching me (unbeknownest to me). He came over and corrected my breathing. I was breathing faster than normal & somehow I had gotten into the habit of firing as I was breathing in which was pulling the shot...go figure.

I would not have been able to fix that problem by my self since I didn't know I was doing it. Just goes to show you that many many factors go into shooting accurately. Sometimes we might need someone who understands how to shoot to analyze what it is we are doing wrong. It's kind of like a golf swing. If you learn how to do it right when you first start, you will more likely be a good shot your whole life. If you just go out and shoot you probably won't ever be a marksman.

I had a guy who was a marksman in the army work with me after that incident. He was on an army shooting team that toured the country shooting in matches. A good gig if you can get it. Helped me a lot.
 

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Yes breathing is very important in any physical activity from shooting a gun to hitting a ball with a bat. Always best to do it exhaling than inhaling.
 
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