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I just picked up the latest issue of Handguns and guess what gun is gracing the cover.....? You guessed it, the new PT709. The gun gets a really good review, but objectivity makes me wish that somebody besides Dick Metcalf had done the review, since he has drawn a paycheck from Taurus and currently can be seen in at least two videos on taurususa.com. Maybe that is how the industry works, I don't know - but I think I'd rather have seen somebody review the gun who has no ties to Taurus one way or another.

I think this gun will eventually give the Keltec a run for it's money - it has lots of redeeming value to it and looks like a well built, well thought out gun. :thumb:
 

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I actually just picked up a copy of this on the way to the dentist today. I might email the magazine and see if they'd be strongly opposed to me posting scans of the article for the forum. It's a long shot, but worth the try.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I didn't realize that this link was already out here, I had started another one....I'll post my main points below.

wish that somebody besides Dick Metcalf had done the review, since he has drawn a paycheck from Taurus and currently can be seen in at least two videos on taurususa.com. Maybe that is how the industry works, I don't know - but I think I'd rather have seen somebody review the gun who has no ties to Taurus one way or another.

I think this gun will eventually give the Keltec a run for it's money - it has lots of redeeming value to it and looks like a well built, well thought out gun. :thumb:
 

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texastaurusguy said:
I didn't realize that this link was already out here, I had started another one....I'll post my main points below.

wish that somebody besides Dick Metcalf had done the review, since he has drawn a paycheck from Taurus and currently can be seen in at least two videos on taurususa.com. Maybe that is how the industry works, I don't know - but I think I'd rather have seen somebody review the gun who has no ties to Taurus one way or another.

I think this gun will eventually give the Keltec a run for it's money - it has lots of redeeming value to it and looks like a well built, well thought out gun. :thumb:
You're making this too easy for me, bud. ;D
 

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FYI, I don't draw a paycheck from Taurus. The video clips on the Taurus website to which you refer are from 2006 "Survival Tools" segments on InterMedia Outdoors' Personal Defense TV series. I have no involvement or sayso concerning television clips that InterMedia may allow on manufacturers' websites.

It is interesting that whenever a writer give a product a favorable magazine review, the forums light up about how he must be a paid hireling of the manufacturers. Apparently the only way to avoid this is to trash the product. You should see the comments i get about being an "industry pimp" whenever I favorably review a S&W gun . . . or a Remington, or a Ruger, or a Kimber, or a . . . well, you get the drift.

It's particularly so with Taurus, of course, because there are still so many people out there who simply can't believe anybody would say anything good about a Taurus gun unless they were paid to.

I suppose we could have assigned a writer who dislikes Taurus products to review the PT709, but you would probably have disliked the result even more . . .

Dick Metcalf
Group Technical Editor
InterMedia Outdoors
 

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PSSSST. Little birdie at Handguns magazine ( read that their editor) confirms release during the fourth quarter or December. Yes,same thing for the most part.

Granted, most know this, but figured a confirmation couldn't hurt.
 

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pasa001 said:
FYI, I don't draw a paycheck from Taurus. The video clips on the Taurus website to which you refer are from 2006 "Survival Tools" segments on InterMedia Outdoors' Personal Defense TV series. I have no involvement or sayso concerning television clips that InterMedia may allow on manufacturers' websites.
He didn't say you were employed by Taurus but that you had been at one time. And he didn't do it to accuse you of being a shill for Taurus. I read it as him being concerned your previous association would be twisted by Taurus bashers to discredit the review as a paid infomercial. If you hadn't noticed this forum is for Taurus fans, not detractors.
 

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I sympathize. Gun boards are full of Taurus haters for one reason or another. I've never taken a check from 'em, but feel like I should get some royalties sometimes for some of the bone heads I argue with. Seems like guys that have never owned a Taurus are often the biggest experts.:rolleyes: Actually, the only brand I ever REALLY hated is RG. ROFL! Oh, I had an AMT Hardballer that took some smithing, but it still had its good attributes. I had a Beretta tip up .22 short once, couldn't get the danged thing to feed and took three strikes to go bang. Only Beretta I ever owned, though. I'm not going to condemn Beretta for one POS they let out. :d I knew it had problems, bought it off a friend cheap thinkin' I knew enough to make it work. LOL! Sold it to a dealer at a gun show for a small profit, at least. My conscience doesn't really hurt me. But, just goes to show that the bad ones get out from all manufacturers.
 

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InfidelIllini said:
He didn't say you were employed by Taurus but that you had been at one time. And he didn't do it to accuse you of being a shill for Taurus. I read it as him being concerned your previous association would be twisted by Taurus bashers to discredit the review as a paid infomercial. If you hadn't noticed this forum is for Taurus fans, not detractors.
I've never been a Taurus employee. I have, from time-to-time in the past, been paid by Taurus on a project basis to do confidential, not-for-publication prototype testing (endurance tests, performance analysis, configuration evaluation, etc.) during product development. I've done the same, as a private consultant, for S&W, Springfield Armory, Dan Wesson Arms, Marlin, and a host of other firearms, ammunition, and accessory manufacturers. It's hard to work in this business for 30+ years without developing "associations." The guys at Taurus tweak me occassionally for being too "associated" with S&W; the guys at S&W give me gentle jabs about being too "associated" with Taurus. Bill Ruger used to call me "that S&W guy." The Federal ammo guys tell me I'm "too close" to Winchester; the Winchester guys say the say same about my relationship with Winchester and Hornady. And so on. But they all work with me because I never violate confidences and always call 'em as I see 'em. If having these kinds of previous "associations" with firearms companies was a disqualifying factor, none of the real experts you read in the magazines would be able to write about anything. After all, who would you rather have reviewing a new gun: a guy who had been consulted about its development from the drawing board forward and worked with its various prototype stages, or a guy who just had it dropped in his hand for a two-day look-see? Assuming he's not a paid shill, of course <g>.

Not being argumentative, just trying to provide a bit of other-side-of-the-fence perspective. One of the things I like about this site is its more friendly, collegial atmosphere, compared to many others.

And yes, I'm keenly aware this site is a group of Taurus fans. If it wasn't, I wouldn't be here.

Cordially,

Dick Metcalf
Group Technical Editor
InterMedia OutDoors
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Mr. Metcalf,

Let me say first that I've respected your body of work for a long, long time. Quite honestly, I hadn't seen any reviews of any Taurus products done by you, prior to seeing the videos on taurususa.com. I had, however, seen many other articles I consider well thought out and written.

I apologize if I came across as calling you somebody who was in the pocket of Taurus. That was not my intent - as II correctly pointed out, my main concern was that the bashers would say 'gee, he gave Taurus a good review, imagine that" or something like that. I was NOT calling your integrity into question - it embarrasses me to think that you might have thought that was what I was driving at. I know that as a gun writer, of all the qualities you have, integrity has to be first - otherwise, nobody would even care to read anything you wrote. I know you to be fair and forthright with whatever product you are reviewing, and again, I'm sorry if I came across any other way.

I appreciate your hard work doing a job that is difficult, but that you probably love doing.

Regards, Ken
 

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Mr Metcalf,
I should have done more research prior to making my post. Sometimes posts don't always end up saying what we'd like them too, just the nature of the beast. I think that's what started all this. Of course I'd rather read a review written by someone involved in the process. They know what the weapon was designed to do and know what to look for when firing it. You have to walk a fine line, I appreciate that, and I appreciate you taking the time to drop in and give us your perspective.
 

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Welcome to TaurusArmed.net, sir.

I am a handgun newbie for all intents & purposes. I bought my first handgun in '02, my second earlier this year and have probably shot less than 1000 rounds total. But what I do know is that you know what you're talking about when it comes to guns. Please stick around, your experience will be a gold mine to folks like me. Also, I am glad to know that you are a Taurus shill errr, uh, fan. ;D
 

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Welcome to the forums. Glad to have you here.

See that's the real beauty of being in the shooting business. You can get too close to all the good guns, the bad, and the ugly.Mostly good.

Same goes for me.
I respect your work and have seen the articles down through the years. Well done.

Lesson learned folks. Foot in mouth disease and eating crow can happen at any time. Big plates of it ,too, if we're not careful. It happens. Thought only cows had that kind of thing happen? Nope. LOL

That's not normally the introduction approach we give to to others.

Dick got it right. Who'd you like to see do the review?

Any of the gun writers,shooters,staff, or members can be called schills. Not realistically. The elitists and trolls do just that anyway. Had it happen at TFL just a week or two ago.Since there was no place to hang the anti Taurus hat on the little pikers made it a personal attack with malice. They did use the " must be an employee" or "get paid by Taurus and be in their pocket".

All that happened was that actual facts were used to take their ilk's assertions down one point at a time, peg by peg.

What have we learned today class? A humbling experience.

The PT 709 is a reputable pistol that was tested and reviewed by a reputable man, who's one of the best in the business. Let's leave it that.

Have to get back on topic anyway.
 

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OK. Back on topic. I looked for the magazine in 4 different places today. 2 of which didn't even sell magazines (though I know one of them used to). One of the other two only had a very small magazine rack. The other had dozens of magazines, but only about 6 shooting mags. None of which were G&A Handguns.

My next try will be Kroger's (I know they have a large magazine rack) or a book store. Wally World may have it, but it's probably a long shot.
 

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Welcome aboard Dick. Appreciate your input into our forum. Being you have a close association with Bob Morrison, what's the word on a "hit the shelf date" for the PT709? When I've spoken to reps at Taurus all they seem to robotically repeat is "4th quarter, 4th quarter". ;)
 

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NYPD in AZ said:
Being you have a close association with Bob Morrison, what's the word on a "hit the shelf date" for the PT709? When I've spoken to reps at Taurus all they seem to robotically repeat is "4th quarter, 4th quarter". ;)
When I tease Bob about this (and all the rest of the new 2008 guns Taurus has announced), he robotically repeats, "4th quarter, 4th quarter," <g>.

Real-world, this is pretty much normal for new-product introductions from all gunmakers (I'm talking about "real" new guns, not just diffferent finish cosmetics, or an additional barrel length, or another available grip variation, on an already-existing product).

Most manufacturers announce and/or demonstrate pre-production samples of new products each year at SHOT Show in January/February. This allows them to assess interest/enthusiasm/acceptance for the product, and to take orders from distributors/dealers (which gives them basic info about the quantities of different models that need to be put into their production schedules). They also take the feedback they receive back to their engineering departments, and design modifications are frequently made made on this basis before the products are actually sent to production. Actual production quantities then start coming off the assembly line and moving thru shipping channels mid-year at the earliest (it usually takes longer with Taurus, due to the realities of being an overseas manufacturer, with all the added layers of shipping time and customs/import red tape that implies).

The SHOT Show announcements also allow manufacturers to get the ball rolling in generating editorial coverage in firearms publications to spark consumer awareness. It generally takes at least five/six months from the date a new product is announced for a real performance evaluation (as opposed to mere press-release summaries) to be generated and appear in the magazines (unless the writer has already learned about it in advance or been consulted in the development process, ahem).

The main drawback of this system, from the consumer's point of view, is that press releases, internet coverage, and early magazine articles about new products frequently appear well before the actual products are on dealer shelves (particularly when post-SHOT design changes are made), which generates frustration and even anger (at the manufacturer, and at the magazines, for telling people about products they can't yet get). At InterMedia Outdoors, we get a LOT of letters/messages from irate and resentful readers of Guns & Ammo, Shooting Times, Handguns, etc. because we've run an "exclusive" review of a great-sounding new product that they can't get for several months. However, selling magazines is what pays our salaries, and being the first to cover an interesting new product gives us a real advantage over our competitors in terms of newsstand sales. So we'll keep on doing it whenever we can.

Some manufacturers try to avoid this situation by delaying announcement of new products until they are ready to ship. When Ruger introduced its new SR9 9mm pistol platform last year, it kept the entire project totally confidential, did all its testing in-house, and put the gun into production; and then issued its PR announcement and released guns for review by writers and shipped the first production run to dealers, all on the same day. Unfortunately, in spite of the fact Ruger had done EXTENSIVE product prototype testing, once the SR9 got into users' hands a problem became apparent that resulted in virtually the entire first-production run being recalled.

Would this have been avoided had Ruger done it the "old-fashioned way" and involved gunwriters and outside expert firearms consultants in the development/review process before actually finalizing and producing the SR9 design? Who knows?

Myself, even though I may be frustrated that I have to wait eight months after I reviewed the pre-production prototype PT709 before I can buy a real one, I appreciate the fact that Taurus jumps through every inside and outside hoop available to make sure the gun is right before they release it. It's one of the reasons that Taurus under Bob Morrison's leadership as CEO has moved from the company it used to be to the company it is now (yes, I'm also a Bob Morrison fan). When was the last time Taurus had to issue a blanket product recall?

Dick Metcalf
 

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Welcome from West Texas, Dick! :wave:

Looking forward to your participation and posts.
 

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Dick, welcome to Taurus Armed from VEGAS! Count me in as another who would gladly welcome your participation.
 
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