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Hi all,
Grabbed an old school pt 99 AF the other day from a pawn shop. While taking it apart I noticed a few markings that weren’t Taurus. Then I saw Hämmerli on the right hand side of the trigger guard. The bottom of the barrel is also marked Hämmerli. The gun has German import marks on it. Just trying to find out more about it. I could only find one other mention of a pt99 with this marking. Anyone know what the relationship with Hämmerli and Taurus was in the 80s/90s?
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Wow, very interesting. Thanks for posting that. A quick google search of 'hammerli taurus' yields several similar discussions. It makes me wonder how it got in the U.S. without new import markings. I'm guessing you have a smuggled pistol. It would be interesting to know its history, but then again, it would be interesting to know the history of any used pistol one comes across.
 

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Cool find! Thanks for posting.
 

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Wow, very interesting. Thanks for posting that. A quick google search of 'hammerli taurus' yields several similar discussions. It makes me wonder how it got in the U.S. without new import markings. I'm guessing you have a smuggled pistol. It would be interesting to know its history, but then again, it would be interesting to know the history of any used pistol one comes across.
So question ...... how would you get legal registration on a weapon smuggled into the U.S.? ..... How could it be a salable piece for an FFL holder?
 
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So question ...... how would you get legal registration on a weapon smuggled into the U.S.? ..... How could it be a salable piece for an FFL holder?
It's rather sunny today, so make sure you are tucked deeply in the shadows under your bridge.

Where do you get that it was smuggled into the US?

Not all of the US requires firearm registration, so why do you think that he has to register it?

What makes you think that a retailer in one of the most restrictive and controlled markets in the world would allow something illegal on his premises, much less to intentionally sell it?
 

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OP,

Pic number 5 with the crown and N or Z is a proofmark. Maybe the gun was imported into someplace in Europe (where proofmarks are required) at one time? Hammerli is a subsidiary of Walther and I don't remember a connection between Taurus and Walther at all much less during the time frame in question.

Could it be that they did some importing back in the day and, like several importers in the US, the guns they brought in were marked with both the importer and the manufacturer? Maybe Hammerli USA or whoever was repping for them on this side of the pond back then, imported the guns into the US. Maybe a deal fell through and the guns got dumped onto the US market (it's happened before).

Hammerli is known as a barrel maker, so maybe they made aftermarket parts for a while- or it's a Berretta after market barrel that some kitchen table gunsmith modified to work in a PT99. I noted that the gun's blued but the barrel is stainless, so maybe it's a aftermarket replacement.
 
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Discussion Starter #7
OP,

Pic number 5 with the crown and N or Z is a proofmark. Maybe the gun was imported into someplace in Europe (where proofmarks are required) at one time? Hammerli is a subsidiary of Walther and I don't remember a connection between Taurus and Walther at all much less during the time frame in question.

Could it be that they did some importing back in the day and, like several importers in the US, the guns they brought in were marked with both the importer and the manufacturer? Maybe Hammerli USA or whoever was repping for them on this side of the pond back then, imported the guns into the US. Maybe a deal fell through and the guns got dumped onto the US market (it's happened before).

Hammerli is known as a barrel maker, so maybe they made aftermarket parts for a while- or it's a Berretta after market barrel that some kitchen table gunsmith modified to work in a PT99. I noted that the gun's blued but the barrel is stainless, so maybe it's a aftermarket replacement.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
OP,

Pic number 5 with the crown and N or Z is a proofmark. Maybe the gun was imported into someplace in Europe (where proofmarks are required) at one time? Hammerli is a subsidiary of Walther and I don't remember a connection between Taurus and Walther at all much less during the time frame in question.

Could it be that they did some importing back in the day and, like several importers in the US, the guns they brought in were marked with both the importer and the manufacturer? Maybe Hammerli USA or whoever was repping for them on this side of the pond back then, imported the guns into the US. Maybe a deal fell through and the guns got dumped onto the US market (it's happened before).

Hammerli is known as a barrel maker, so maybe they made aftermarket parts for a while- or it's a Berretta after market barrel that some kitchen table gunsmith modified to work in a PT99. I noted that the gun's blued but the barrel is stainless, so maybe it's a aftermarket replacement.
Yeah that’s an N. Forgets what it stands for, but all guns that use modern ammo have that stamp, the “N” under the federal eagle. It was imported to Germany in 1989, stamped by the Proof house in ulm, Germany. I havn’t been able to find any other pt 99s in black with the stainless barrel. I know hammerli is now operating from Germany. I can’t find any link between, hammerli, Taurus, or Germany. Just kinda hoping someone might know something.
 

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It's rather sunny today, so make sure you are tucked deeply in the shadows under your bridge.

Where do you get that it was smuggled into the US?

Not all of the US requires firearm registration, so why do you think that he has to register it?

What makes you think that a retailer in one of the most restrictive and controlled markets in the world would allow something illegal on his premises, much less to intentionally sell it?
Go overboard, eh JT. .... You sure read a lot into the question that WASN'T there.

The question was directed at Delta, as he made the reference. .... It was a simple question, not intended to draw ire, or SA responses. ..... Please get that med script refilled soon.

In the meantime, if your calm enough, tell me how a legit FFL dealer can make the sale without a serial#, a serial# that I assume would be required and REGISTERED to IMPORT (vs. smuggle) a handgun legally?
 
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Also, when I try running the serial number through Taurus, says it doesn’t exist.
That's nothing to freak out about.

Taurus' serial number look up isn't all inclusive for some reason. It's not unusual for a serial number not to show up in the database available- even for more recent and current models, much less older ones.
 

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So question ...... how would you get legal registration on a weapon smuggled into the U.S.? ..... How could it be a salable piece for an FFL holder?
I'm not an FFL, so I can only answer by reference. As far as I know, an FFL doesn't "run" the serial number to determine if it is a wanted gun. If you took this gun to an FFL, he'd put it on the books and try to sell it. Unless the local P.D. came in and ran the serial number through NCIC, no government agency would know about it. Even then, unless the serial number had been reported stolen, NCIC wouldn't have a record of it. It would probably be bought and sold over and over with FFL's putting on their books when they had it on hand.

I don't know how gun registration works (we don't register them here in Kansas) but I assume it is a similar process, except you turn the details in to the registering agency. They probably run an NCIC check and, again, nothing would turn up (unless someone had reported it stolen in the past).

I'm guessing this gun was purchased overseas and brought back in to the U.S. as personal property like any other.
 

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Go overboard, eh JT. .... You sure read a lot into the question that WASN'T there.

The question was directed at Delta, as he made the reference. .... It was a simple question, not intended to draw ire, or SA responses. ..... Please get that med script refilled soon.

In the meantime, if your calm enough, tell me how a legit FFL dealer can make the sale without a serial#, a serial# that I assume would be required and REGISTERED to IMPORT (vs. smuggle) a handgun legally?
Me going overboard?

Me? Seriously?

You're the one that came up with a way to jump all the way to weapons smuggling and illegal gun sales from a guy's question about a pawnshop find! I realize you are a conspiracy theorist and tin foil hat squad member of 'good' standing but that's still a reach of epic proportions.

Yes, I realize who the question was directed at, I just went ahead and pointed out the absurdity of it all for him.
 

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ahh just off the top of my head here and thats not always the best!!
but-- I don't think that the import regulations were so strict before 1969* or so??
and i do not know of any relationship between hammerlli and taurus, but who knows this is the first that i have ever heard of such but Hammerlli did make a 22 semi pistol for Sig Sauer and and was known as the Trailside i believe it was?
 
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Lets keep the conversation civil please.
 

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Yes, I realize who the question was directed at, I just went ahead and pointed out the absurdity of it all for him.
I'm sure he appreciates your speaking for him ........ as for the 'absurdity' ...... with whom that lies is a matter of opinion.
 

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I'm not an FFL, so I can only answer by reference. As far as I know, an FFL doesn't "run" the serial number to determine if it is a wanted gun. If you took this gun to an FFL, he'd put it on the books and try to sell it. Unless the local P.D. came in and ran the serial number through NCIC, no government agency would know about it. Even then, unless the serial number had been reported stolen, NCIC wouldn't have a record of it. It would probably be bought and sold over and over with FFL's putting on their books when they had it on hand.

I don't know how gun registration works (we don't register them here in Kansas) but I assume it is a similar process, except you turn the details in to the registering agency. They probably run an NCIC check and, again, nothing would turn up (unless someone had reported it stolen in the past).

I'm guessing this gun was purchased overseas and brought back in to the U.S. as personal property like any other.
Okay, got it. Was not even thinking of an overseas purchase coming stateside. I was only assuming that it was imported by a FFL dealer, then sold here.

As for the 'wanted gun' comment, no dealer here either, but perhaps one can chime in. But a friend of mine who had a shop a few years ago said that he was required to run the number on any gun that was brought in (for him to buy or sell) and that if it came up on the list he was not to release it back to the individual, but was to notify LE. ...... Just repeating what he said.
 
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Hammerli in Tiengen, Germany was the importer of Taurus and Swiss Hammerli pistols. They also imported Taurus revolvers into Germany. In my experience, the guns that are Hammerli marked have better Q.C. than the rest.

This marking is on a Taurus 83 with the proof code IG for 1986. That gun is much slicker and has better timing than most S&W's I have seen and I have seen a lot!

 

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I think a lot of the German proofed guns we see came across the pond via U.S. Service Members.
 

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I think a lot of the German proofed guns we see came across the pond via U.S. Service Members.
Could be but this is too new for war trophy bring backs.

I don't know anything about how the PX system and firearms worked overseas. Can you even buy a private firearm at a PX while overseas? If so, are the guns imported from the US? Do they source locally (which would explain the Hammerli import marks in this case)? Do they import from the States but they have to pass through the host country's importation system? I figure that, if they are allowed at all, they are at least restricted to on base only in most if not all countries- but the guns of those living in on base housing are stored in an armory even in the States. I don't see a foreign country allowing US servicemen to be armed in their private homes off base like they could in the US.
 
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