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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Thought that I'd start a new topic in relation to the one I have in the Millennium G2 forum here; https://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/millennium-pro-pistols/395703-pt111-g2-g2c.html

The relevant part of that topic here is at post 15 explaining the reason behind this. Our daughter had a near home invasion a couple nights ago but the intruder was driven off by 2 large dogs even though one dog was injured in this attack. Max is not a small dog. He is an 85# Pit/Shepard mix and can be aggressive. She is a single mother with three small children. She also has no firearm experience other than shooting a shotgun a few times. Until a couple years ago her mother was a not in my house type.

Well tonight the daughter came over and we sat and talked about what happened and then talked guns. We went over the basic written in stone rules and then some show and tell with our guns. Now I looks as if the next step is some range time with a couple different guns. So far I believe she has the correct mindset to learn how to own and keep a gun for protection in a house that has very young kids.

At this time both the wife and I are very concerned about what happened and what may have happened if that intruder had gained entrance considering what they did to the dog. As the Sherriff stated, this person has no fear! As much as I'd like to give her a gun right now I just don't think that would be prudent.
 

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Thought that I'd start a new topic in relation to the one I have in the Millennium G2 forum here; https://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/millennium-pro-pistols/395703-pt111-g2-g2c.html

The relevant part of that topic here is at post 15 explaining the reason behind this. Our daughter had a near home invasion a couple nights ago but the intruder was driven off by 2 large dogs even though one dog was injured in this attack. Max is not a small dog. He is an 85# Pit/Shepard mix and can be aggressive. She is a single mother with three small children. She also has no firearm experience other than shooting a shotgun a few times. Until a couple years ago her mother was a not in my house type.

Well tonight the daughter came over and we sat and talked about what happened and then talked guns. We went over the basic written in stone rules and then some show and tell with our guns. Now I looks as if the next step is some range time with a couple different guns. So far I believe she has the correct mindset to learn how to own and keep a gun for protection in a house that has very young kids.

At this time both the wife and I are very concerned about what happened and what may have happened if that intruder had gained entrance considering what they did to the dog. As the Sherriff stated, this person has no fear! As much as I'd like to give her a gun right now I just don't think that would be prudent.
Glad that your daughter was not hurt in the near home invasion. The quicker you get her to an instructor the better. I'd suggest taking her to your LGS and let her handle a number of different pistols. Let her tell you what feels best to her. Don't, of course, let the Gun Shop tell you what they think she should have. ( I made that mistake with my wife's first gun). I wouldn't get anything less than a 380 and honestly 9mm is really the lowest. There are a number of excellent single stack 9mm pistols available.

If you have a local range, take her there and rent a couple of pistols that she thinks she likes the feel of.

At any rate, sooner is better than later.
 

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Also, consider what uses the gun will serve. Is this a home protection/range gun only, or is she considering carrying at some point? What is her financial situation? What is her size/strength? There are a ton of questions that will need to be answered before you will arrive at an adequate "first gun". If you are looking for suggestions, the more information you can provide, the better the advice would be... :). Best of luck to your family and may you stay safe and protected.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
No, not looking for suggestions for her. I have a very good understanding of what is available and she will have access to 6 different pistols to shoot, from 9mm to 45acp. Now if her uncle comes along that could easily be 16 different pistols ranging from 5 different 380's, 8 different 9mm, one 40cal, a 38spl revolver and two 45acp so I think we have it covered.

She is more than capable of shooting anything we own which isn't the question. The question is her mindset. Is she ready and willing to pull a firearm and defend herself? Talk is cheap. This isn't going to be a carry gun.

One of the things we have also discussed is a lock box for her nightstand to keep it in.
 

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She is more than capable of shooting anything we own which isn't the question. The question is her mindset. Is she ready and willing to pull a firearm and defend herself?
That is the most insightful and wise comment I've heard in a while in relation to a potential new gun owner. If she is not mentally prepared for what responsibilities that come gun ownership and the potential personal, social, and legal, ramifications that come with possibly having to use one in self-defense then she should NOT get one and keep it in her home. In fact, it becomes a liability inasmuch as it could be used against her in a home invasion, not to mention the need for security to keep the little ones from snooping around (and they will.) That said, do not overlook the ferocity and lengths with which a mother will go to defend her children. For the sake of them she may get very serious about owning a home defense weapon. If that is the case and she makes that decision, it sounds as though she will be in good hands and will get sound guidance. Best of luck in whatever you all decide.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thank you Duane, trying to take the emotion out of this whole affair but it's not easy. We seen a picture of the dog tonight and the whole side of his face is swollen and we also found he lost a tooth. I swear if he was human he would have a black eye!

I cannot answer the question of her readiness. But yes I do believe that if you have one and have to pull it out then you'd better be prepared to use it to it's full potential. No half way. No shots to scare them away. Don't get me wrong as I am a firm believer in flight or fight and flight comes first if at all possible. I seriously detest the thought that someone puts me into a situation that I have to make a life or death decision because of their actions.

I keep thinking of Max the dog and the injuries he sustained and what would have or could have happened if he wasn't present. The daughter couldn't have fended off this assailant. Especially with whatever weapon it was that he had with him.
 

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I'm glad your daughter was not injured and the dogs were able to stop the invasion. I hope Max gets healed up fast...and maybe gets a special treat or 2! It's clear you know the paths to take to get your daughter going with her decision. The only thing I will add is that under the circumstances I think an expedited process might be in order.
 

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Thank God she's okay and the dog only got minor injuries. He deserves a nice ribeye at some point.

Lot's of choices in guns.

She needs something she WILL keep with her. Having a burglary attempt already, having them come back when she's
not home and taking the gun would not be a good thing.

I like a manual safety and tend to favor XD's for the grip safety feature especially for a new shooter.

All the Best,
D. White
 
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We await photos of the steak provided for Max.

Your central question is a wise one. It's harder to take action to end a human life than a lot of people realize. I highly recommend the book On Killing. Have several serious talks with her about this.

Finally, can't help but opine that this sounds like a job for Mr. Revolver. An 856, a 617... Don't forget the advantages of a wheel gun.
 

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That is a scary event and unfortunately further indicates the times that we are living in. Some neighborhoods are way worse than others and a single woman with kids should first carefully evaluate where they reside. It is probably the most expensive of options, but the first move I would consider making that provides the best chance for safety. Second is home security and involves the kids to always, always lock the house even when inside during the day. I do this now, all the time, and I am fortunate enough to live in a pretty "safe" area..(if there really is one anymore).

New shooters I always start off with a revolver and in a panic mode they are probably the easiest to operate and least likely to malfunction. Outside of that, training and practice will improve reactions, aim and familiarity with the weapon. Like everyone else has said...security of the gun is of paramount importance.
 

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Handguns are tough to learn to shoot especially from scratch. May I suggest a pistol caliber carbine for dedicated home defense? 3 points of contact are easier to shoot than just 2, the added barrel increases velocity and the added weight means that most novices can shoot a whole lot more powerful handgun round out of one than they can from a handgun. Those that can barely control a .380 can change to handling a 9mm .357. .44 or .45 with ease instead. That added weight and the extra point of contact tames the recoil.
 

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(snipped)

This sounds like a job for Mr. Revolver. An 856, a 617... Don't forget the advantages of a wheel gun.
Studies have shown that a high-velocity bullet from a semi-automatic firearm such as a 9mm Browning or Colt may not stop an attacker (especially if they are drugged-up), so something slower (and larger) such as a .45 calibre would be more effective as it will cause more internal damage.

I’m a Brit - but my understanding of US law is that the advice from Self-Defence courses is to “Shoot To Kill”, as a dead intruder will have extreme difficulty suing you for injuries!



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No, not looking for suggestions for her. I have a very good understanding of what is available and she will have access to 6 different pistols to shoot, from 9mm to 45acp. Now if her uncle comes along that could easily be 16 different pistols ranging from 5 different 380's, 8 different 9mm, one 40cal, a 38spl revolver and two 45acp so I think we have it covered.

She is more than capable of shooting anything we own which isn't the question. The question is her mindset. Is she ready and willing to pull a firearm and defend herself? Talk is cheap. This isn't going to be a carry gun.

One of the things we have also discussed is a lock box for her nightstand to keep it in.
In my honest opinion no one will ever know until they are forced into a situation. I can say I am willing to defend my family and self all I want. Until I am forced to do so I will never truly know if I can pull the trigger. I trained to do so, I have kept the mindset to do so, I am constantly practicing excellent self awareness and running different scenarios through my head. I believe if it came to defending my family or self I will do so. Until I am forced to I will truly never know.

Also some people have natural fight or flee instincts. If she by nature has a flee instinct then maybe she is not ready. If she can control to some extent these natural instincts she is on the right path in my opinion.
 

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The advice given has been well stated and founded, but I am going to take a different tack with my answer, sort of sailing into the wind.
All would agree that to defend with a properly firearm requires training and practice. That is a given and must be accomplished.
The question is the selection of the gun. In tee instant case it is woman with no gu handling experience, and who mst be brought up to spee quickly. That would be best accoplished with a gun that will not take long to master control of and develop accuracy with. With short training time I think a 380 semi of locked breach design not blowback is best. Recoil is the greatest obstacle to overcome for a new shooter. The 380 round has light recoil and the locked breach will reduce it further. There are any women who army 380s and who did so on the advice of a SD instructor. It is great self defense starter gun for many. It can be mastered faster than a larger caliber.

For home defense a gun has t be immediately on hand. If you have to run upstairs to get it, you lose. The best thing is to carry tin one’s person. The 380 is easy to carry all day long.

For street defense the 380 will suffice. Most perps run away at the sight of a gun. They do not ask what caliber it is before running. If shooting is necessary the 380 will make holes ina bad guy. No ne want to be shot, and if they are shot they usually take off. Yes, drug addicts and crazy people are hard to stop. However trading up to the kind of caliber that will more readily stop them takes time. She needs a gun now not two months or more from now. She will be able to keep on target easier with a 380 than with a 9mm or .40. In time she can work up to higher calibers if she wants to.

Teach her to shoot with FMJ and load the guns with FMJ. 380 JHP is not going to expand out of a short barrel. A longer barrel means less inclined to carry it at all times. Yes a JHP from a 4” barrel is likely to expand, but the question is what exactly is the benefit of that with a 380? Not much because aiming for center mass means high likelihood of hitting bone. With a 380 JHP the bullet willl flatten out when it hits bone and penetration willl be impaired. Penetration is more important than expansion. That is why the FBI standard is penetration not an expansion based.

Realistic threat analysis would conclude that in a house or apartment one is likely to encounter an invader from a distance of 20’ to face-face. The best defnse is to get as many rounds into the target as quickly as you can. Aiming is normally front sight on target and pulll the trigger. A 380 wil fit that bill.

I think one can generally forget about the so called 7 yard rule. In reality most street attacks occur at much closer distances. By the way, the FBI, often quoted as the source of the 7 yard rue, say it never made such a statement. If anyone can find in FBI recommendations please send me link.

If she is on the street she can conceal a small 380 more easily and with more options. The number of concealment options lie garments and holsters for women is amazing. She just needs to find options that allow her quick access to the gun. I recommend a Semi over a revolver. There is an advantage to few extra rounds for a novice under pressure. I would avoid double action to assure an easier trigger pull to assure better accuracy.

Tow final thoughts.
1) More people are killed every year by 22 caliber hand guns than any other. 380 is second in line after22. 2 is tops beause there are so many of them in homes across the country. But the 380 is easily mastered and better than 22.
2) It is best too learn too drive a truck after you have learned to drive car. Master the basics, and move to greater challenges after that.
 

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Studies have shown that a high-velocity bullet from a semi-automatic firearm such as a 9mm Browning or Colt may not stop an attacker (especially if they are drugged-up), so something slower (and larger) such as a .45 calibre would be more effective as it will cause more internal damage.

I’m a Brit - but my understanding of US law is that the advice from Self-Defence courses is to “Shoot To Kill”, as a dead intruder will have extreme difficulty suing you for injuries!



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You shoot to 'stop the attack'. Dead folks don't attack people outside of the Zombie movies.
 

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Studies have shown that a high-velocity bullet from a semi-automatic firearm such as a 9mm Browning or Colt may not stop an attacker (especially if they are drugged-up), so something slower (and larger) such as a .45 calibre would be more effective as it will cause more internal damage.

I’m a Brit - but my understanding of US law is that the advice from Self-Defence courses is to “Shoot To Kill”, as a dead intruder will have extreme difficulty suing you for injuries!



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ah, what generally like almost always stops an assailant is
1) a hit to the central nervous system or
2) bleeding out.
Now bleeding out is normally caused by the damage to a large blood vessel or an important organ. as the human body I quite slippery and blood vessels and organs are kind of tough then generally what is need is that a sharp object cuts these organs/ vessels and allows loss of blood quickly.
the size of the projectile has little to do with it, the size and sharpness of the EXPANDED projectile has a lot to do with it.
a round smooth projectile does little damage to an organ or vessel unless it hits it center and the organ or vessel does not slip to one side as its pushed out of the way (think of the number of times that a blood vessel is missed by a nurse trying to take blood, and that's a very sharp needle).
thats why those ugly little petals of an expanded projectile mean a lot in self defense shootings.
if shooting non expanding projectiles then yes the original size matters, if shooting expanding projectiles then it depends on how much expansion it ends up being and how deep the projectile is driven.
at least that's what the front desk clerk told me at the Holiday Inn Express that I stayed at last night.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
My thought has been one of these for her storage needs. https://www.cabelas.com/product/sho...0/liberty-hd-quick-vault/1929922.uts?slotId=2

Should provide quick enough access yet still keep the kids out of harms way. Also before you all get carried away I do not believe there is a need to carry all day while at home. If the situation were that bad she would be moving out. The cover of darkness emboldens many creeps! Beside, home defense allows for a bigger weapon and a carry gun allows. No way I would try to carry my large frame 45acp Witness.
 

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We await photos of the steak provided for Max.

Your central question is a wise one. It's harder to take action to end a human life than a lot of people realize. I highly recommend the book On Killing. Have several serious talks with her about this.

Finally, can't help but opine that this sounds like a job for Mr. Revolver. An 856, a 617... Don't forget the advantages of a wheel gun.
well I agree except I lean to a 20 gauge pump shotgun myself.
fairly simple operation, safer I believe around children, fairly easy to place into action and reasonbally priced normally.
like mentioned if you have to think about shooting someone that's doing you harm then likely you do not really need a firearm.
 

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You shoot to 'stop the attack'. Dead folks don't attack people outside of the Zombie movies.
Well and Senoia , Georgia!
 

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We opted for a Beretta 85 for my wife.
While not being a locked breach as suggested it is on the very large size for a 380 while still being a single stack for small hands.
Im not a fan of the 380 but it holds 8+1 and that should get the job done if needed.
 
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