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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Bear with me here. Since I'm new to handguns and am looking to make a couple more purchases (revolver for the Mrs. and another handgun for myself), I need a little help with the decision process. I'm trying to decide between a 24/7 OSS or a high capacity (14 round) Para Ordnance Gun Rights 1911. I love 1911's. Shot one, loved it, want one badly, but also want the high capacity that standard 1911's lack, hence the 1911 in question. But, a big thing with me is dirt getting in the weapon. I like camping and being outdoors, so natually, the possiblity of getting some dirt or mud in the weapon exists. I've seen the videos of 24/7's being dropped in mud, being run over, etc. and still performing fine. If you were to perform the same torture test on a 1911, would it still function fine like the 24/7 or a Glock? Some folks tell me that 1911's are super reliable and dirt / mud won't hinder their performance any more than a 24/7 would be hindered by dirt or mud. Other folks tell me that since newer 1911's are so tight, that a few grains of sand will cause misfires, FTF, jams, etc. I've been told that the WWII and Vietnam era 1911's were so resistant to dirt and mud related issues becuase they were loose; that you could shake them and hear them rattle. Since the old era 1911's were loose, were they like a Glock or 24/7 and could take some dirt and mud and still function fine? Are newer 1911's so tight that any dirt / mud would cause MORE problems than with a 24/7 or similar polymer pistol? I just don't want to be camping, somehow get some dirt or mud in the 1911 when I need to use it, and it doesn't work properly. Thanks for any help clearing this up and helping with my noob-ness.
 

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Generally, the more accurate a 1911 is, the tighter the tolerances are. Tighter tolerances leaves less space for gunk. With less space for gunk the same amount of gunk will start to cause issues.

I'm not sure how tight the non-target 1911's are.

If the slide is closed I wouldn't expect issues with most pistols however. Especially if the gun is in a good holster with a closed muzzle end.

When adding in the magazine capacity you want then you're looking at a 24/7 or SA does make a high capacity but its the GI clone which has small sights.

Steelheart
 

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The pistol, cal. 45, model 1911, was designed by John Moses Browning to be a military sidearm, in the days when the US Army still had mounted cavalry. Original concept in the 1890's, adopted by the US Army, March 29, 1911.

As a military sidearm, it was purposely designed to function while dirty, muddy, frozen, whatever. If you were to find an older service pistol it will function well with dirt in the works. If however, you decide to buy one of the newer versions made with tighter tolerances for better accuracy, it will not work as well dirty.

Springfield and some others make / import "GI" 1911's, supposedly identical to the original design, but truly isn't. For a bit more money they sell a "Mil Spec" version. I bought one of the Springfield GI pistols about 4 years ago, and I'm here to tell ya, it shoots very, very well. The sights that come on it are kind of puny, but with a bit of highlight paint, the pistol is very accurate. I have not had occasion to shoot it while filled with dirt yet. I use it as my sometimes carry pistol, and I got the 4 inch version. It works well with 8 round magazines, and so far has digested every kind of ammo I feed it.




 

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Nothing while camping should cause your choices to malfunction most of the guns are used by special forces at one time or another except the 24/7 which was built for that purpose but the Gov. backed out on everyone. Beware of the commercials where everything is dragged through the mud and comes up shooting. anything can cause a malfunction, even operator error. every year people go dear hunting in all kinds of weather my guns have been dropped in rivers and snowed on and abused in all kinds of ways they are designed to shot and most that are now made do it well. Is there a magical gun that can do it all I don't know if you find it let us all know. Other wise the guns you have mentioned should work fine. Find the one that feels the best and go with it. I own several from cheap to expensive and the all perfom well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks. That's pretty much what I was thinking, but wanted to get the input of some more experienced folks. I'd really like to get the Para, but the more I look at it, the new PT845 is looking VERY attractive. I love the feel of a 1911, but am wondering how the double stack mag well is going to make the Para feel. I'd really like to find a shop that has the PT845 and the Para, but I doubt that'll happen. About the only way I'll get my hands on either one is to wait for 6 months before the gun shops here start carrying the PT845, and hit a gun show for the Para 1911. There're usually several gun shows here every year, so I guess that'll be my best bet at getting my hands on them both at the same time. One of the concerns I have with the Para 1911 is weight. Unloaded, it weighs 40 oz. Loaded, that'd be a beast to carry. That said, the PT845 sounds more attractive, since it should SURELY be at least 10 oz. lighter. I've also heard that newer 1911's (like the Para I'm looking at) need more maintenance than polymer frame pistols, that springs need to be changed every 2-3k rounds, and more frequent cleaning is needed to maintain functionability. Is that true? Field stripping seems to take a little more time and tools. I really need to get my hands on them both and see what feels best, but having the information I was asking about helps with my decision.
 

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I used to want a para so bad, I ended up with the PT 1911 and would not trade it for the world. It feels great and outshoots more expencive guns, I too am waiting for Taurui to come out with new models I think they are way ahead of the box on some of there guns and hope they are as good as they say they are. Good luck
 

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I've owned a 1911 for longer than I care to admit and I will tell you they are a finicky bunch. The ergonomics are good but each one is a different animal. While kimbers and paras have a reputation for quality and reliability I have not known a 1911 that didn't need some customization or a little work done so it can be more reliable. It's the nature of the beast, but you gotta put a little sweat in to own a n American classic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
45 Forever said:
I used to want a para so bad, I ended up with the PT 1911 and would not trade it for the world.
Would you mind telling me why you chose the PT1911 over the Para? Cost/value, performance, features? I'm just curious since I'm looking at the Hi-Cap Para. Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Ace said:
I've owned a 1911 for longer than I care to admit and I will tell you they are a finicky bunch. The ergonomics are good but each one is a different animal. While kimbers and paras have a reputation for quality and reliability I have not known a 1911 that didn't need some customization or a little work done so it can be more reliable. It's the nature of the beast, but you gotta put a little sweat in to own a n American classic.
That's what I've heard. I like a handgun that I don't have to customize...yet; I'm still pretty new at this. My fear is that I would have to do some customizing and spend even more money on an already expensive weapon. I don't want to have to tinker with the weapon to ensure it's always ready. I used to modify cars and trucks...turbos, trannsmission work, suspension, lift kits, the works..and it got VERY annoying always tinkering with stuff to make sure everything was good to go. That's why I quit doing it, even after becoming very good at it over my 11 year exerience. Now, I'll only put exhaust on a vehicle to make it sound better. The same thing has transferred to my firearms. I might switch sites or get a better trigger, but other than that, I don't want to mess with it too much and have to tinker with it or make it more difficult to use and maintain in the field. If a Hi-Cap 1911, such as the Para, would be more difficult to maintain proper functioning in the field (disassebly, cleaning, dirt, etc.), then I guess I should stick with a pistol similar to my 24/7 Pro. Then again, Spec Ops folks do like their 1911's. It's kind of hard to argue with that. How much more maintenance is involved with a 1911 than, say, my 24/7 Pro? I hear there's a bit more involved in using/maintaining a 1911. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm only going by what I've heard and would like to get it straightened out. Thanks.
 

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I'm a big fan of the 1911. But have to admit they can be tricky and babied a little. Although I'm fond of the para the double stack concerned me with the 1911 style and I was not real knowing of the LDA trigger system even though I like it. I wanted something that I was vary familiar with and that's why I chose the Taurus. Its a good solid gun for the money.
 

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Anymore not all 1911's need any more than finding a magazine style it likes to be reliable. My old Kimber ran just fine and I expect most of the current crop would do the same.

Steelheart
 

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Guess what? 1911s are no more finicky than any other precision tool you use. They are just as reliable, just as functional and just as good as any other modern pistol. All this balderdash about 1911s being finicky grew from the more recent desire of everyone owning one wanting to be able to brag their gun would shoot one-half inch groups at 50 yards. Most of us are not able to live up to the capability of one of these pistols. 1911s survived in the dust, mud, gravel, snow, rain, blood and guts of four or more major wars this country fought in; not to mention the hundreds, thousands of smaller, less-known fights our soldiers fought in. But here is the kicker, these people knew they should take care of their guns. That they should keep them sheltered while not shooting them as best they could. That is the reason military pistols are issued with flapped holsters covering them up. Why they were made with less tight specs than the target versions used by the shooting teams. You should check out the original demands made by the U.S. military on Browning's pistols when the 1911 was accepted. The ordinary 1911s, not the target ones, had to shoot a three inch group at 50 yards, not 25 yards, but 50. If a soldier with a 1911 hanging on his hip or in a shoulder holster had to march in mud and rain and snow, sleep in wet, muddy foxholes, etc., what do you think the first thing was that he made sure was dry and clean? His weapons, of course. He and his pistol were living under the most primitive conditions you could imagine, but he sure as heck didn't deliberately throw the pistol into a mud bog or leave it laying on the berm of the trench overnight; not worrying about dirt and rust and crud affecting its performnce. The torture tests different people have put pistols through was to determine just how much punishment the guns would survive under the worst conditions. No one in their right mind ever told the soldiers they should pursue this same type of management in the real world. After seeing a clone of your automobile being tested in a tv commercial to see how it would survive an impact at 60 mph, are you going to be stupid enough to try it out the next time you drive to work? No, I think not. Use your bean on these deals. There is a vast difference between common sense care and deliberate destruction.
The other thing I get tired of reading about is people who worry about how much ammo their pistol should handle. If you use common sense and have normal vision, you should be staying away from places, times and happenings where you can accurately predict you could get your rear end shot off. If you are unlucky enough to be caught in a tight that is potentially lethal for your and your loved ones, a single stacked pistol, whatever caliber, should be enough to save your bacon while you are prudently getting the hell away from that place. Any pistol with a seven to 12 round capacity is all you should need. Most people who do carry 1911s carry a seven or eight round magazine in the pistol and also have a 10 round one as backup.
Excuse this windup, but people who buy a new gun, any gun, and one of their major worries is whether or not the gun will survive a romp through mud,dust and being dropped 50 feet on a concrete surface need a ball bat, not a pistol.
 

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I agree with most of what you said there schoonie but the reality of the 1911 is that a standard GI was reliable to a point. The military accepted a certain rate of failure when they adopted the design and when John Moses Browning designed the pistol it out performed all other autos at that time, almost 100 years ago. During which even browning improved on the design, when he invented the first wonder nine the high-power. All his designs were ahead of his time which is why they are still popular today. That's not to say there are more reliable autos out there, there are. For the most part the new breed out there don't require the necessary improvement I needed on my 1911, but you will require more cleaning and maintainance than a glock of the same claiber, and as a first pistol, something you call upon to defend yourself, I would recommend something else first, and then get a 1911 after I got used to autos.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I appreciate the input. That's one of the points I was getting at, that the early 1911's are proven in the grime, the new "tight" 1911's are the ones in question, since I've heard differing opinions of them. I take care of my stuff, but I want to know that in an absolute worst case scenario, that will probably never even happen anyway, that my weapon will work. About the high capacity, who cares if I want high capacity? It's my preference, so don't get riled up when I talk about it. I've been in some bad situations before and only had a pocket knife, so when I got a handgun, I wanted as many rounds as I could carry. I'm especially not taking any chances when my wife is with me. Better to be prepared than wish you had been after the fact. So, if I can carry 12+ rounds vs. 8, I'll do it. I'm a worst case scenario thinker, and so far, it's kept me alive. So when I purchase a handgun or knife, I make those purchases with "worst case scenario" thinking. When I bought my field knife, I bought a SOG Tigershark. Overkill for daily use? Yes. But if something crazy ever happens while I'm in the woods or something, that 9" partially serrated bowie will be a huge comfort to me. I go, for what most people think, overkill on everything I do...synthetic oils, tires, knives, magazine capacity, etc. But, in the end, it makes me feel good. It's how I operate. I'm always prepared for the worst. When I leave the house in the morning, I'm prepared for anything, and I want to have a handgun tough enough and with enough rounds to get me back alive. Read in the latest issue of Combat Handguns "it happened to me". A total of 5 guys were stalking a man and his wife. What happens if you're on the street and that happens? Tell ya what, I want 12+ rounds on my hip, without having to reload, to take care of the threat. My buddy said, "Eh, you take out the first two or three and the others will run". I replied saying, "Yeah, you hope they do. But what happens if they pull out handguns and start shooting back? I don't know about you, but I'm not that good of a shot to take out 5 guys with 7 or 8 rounds. Reloading? Yeah, sure, but that takes time...time that the other 2 or 3 guys are shooting at you. Me, I don't want to be reloading at that point. I'd like to still be shooting my first hi-cap magazine." He just got a "oh, didn't think about that" look on his face and couldn't think of anything to say back and just shrugged his shoulders. Sooo, that's how I think and justify my wanting a hi-cap handgun and ask about the dirt and grime it could possibly be subjected to. Heck, if it came down to it, I'm good at throwing my field knife. If I had to, I could put it in someone's chest from 10-15 feet. Give me a good throwing knife, and that distance increases. I can throw from just about any hold and angle. I got good at throwing for a specific reason. Years ago, I lived in a BAD area and wasn't old enough to purchase a handgun. I always prepare for the absolute worst. Example from a few years ago: when you hear car alarms going off every night, my roommate's car gets broken into and almost stolen (thieves couldn't get it started) and they take everything in the car, hear gunshots evey other night, and when your friend (who lived below me in the apts.) gets his car broken into and all his stuff stolen, gets held up at gunpoint in front of his door, and then 4 weeks later, two guys kick his door in, pistol whip him in front of his family and take everyone's money and jewelry, you tend to start thinking differently. I was just glad that I lived on the second floor so it was harder to break into my place. It was a BAD place, but I was VERY poor and it was all I could afford. So excuse me if I seem a little paranoid and go "overkill" when purchasing a hi-cap handgun. It's what makes me feel safer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I do appreciate everyone's input, and I apologize for ranting a bit in my last post. Just trying to keep it friendly.
 

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Something that I think many here will enjoy...

The Gospel According To John (Moses Browning)
http://www.frfrogspad.com/jmb.htm

Steve27, the only comment I'll make on your long post above is that if you break it up into paragraphs it is much easier to read than one big spiel.

Steelheart
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
That was an entertaining and good read. Thanks for the post. In the future, I'll use some paragraphs for my long posts.
 

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Steve you arnt the only one that has been to bad places and back you'd be surprised at what I might have on me just to walk the dogs at night. So I know what your talking about and believe me people here are more prepared than some wish to let on. you ask all the questions you want someone here will relate to your wants. Are neighborhood has had a rash of break ins so more then a few neighbors are a little skiddish. I have several house guns and most of the time one is on me. My XD-9 has a quick belt clip holster with a extra mag attached there 16 round mags so that's 33 with one up the pipe. will I need it, hope not but I would hate to have to have my gun and its in a safe somewhere I'm not.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I know how you feel. I hope I never need it, but if I do, I have it. I have at least one mag for reloading, but am not against carrying two. Carrying 1 reload mag, I have 24+1, and two mags gives me 36+1. If the end of the world comes about while I'm in town, I'll be prepared, hahaha. But seriously, I can see how some people would think that's overkill.

At any rate, I'm still debating between the Taurus 845 and the Hi-Cap Para. I WISH I could get my hands on a Hi-Cap Para to see how it feels in the hand. I wonder if I would have issues carrying it, due to the extra weight. What I'd REALLY like is mil-spec tolerances with hi-cap like Para's. I loved Steelheart's post about the "gospel". I was talking with an instructor yesterday, and he agreed that the tight tolerances of today's 1911's make them too finicky for harsh use. He shoots a Kimber Target II at the range and chose a revolver for carry. He said he wouldn't recommend the Kimber for carry, only for range shooting. He agreed that the mil-spec 1911's are great for carry and field use....it's the way the weapon was designed, to drag it through the mud and still function. I'd be all over a mil-spec if they made a hi-cap option....buuuut they probably won't do that because then it wouldn't be "mil-spec". Maybe a mil-spec SA with a GOOD 10 round mag would fill the bill?
 

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Steve27 said:
.... I'd be all over a mil-spec if they made a hi-cap option....buuuut they probably won't do that because then it wouldn't be "mil-spec"....
Springfield Armory does make a high capacity (13rd) GI clone. I'd probably have the sights upgraded (I'd stick with a fixed sight) and then see what I felt the gun needed for comfort (possible beavertail etc). Once upon a time the Springfield's high cap 1911 mags were compatible with Para's but I don't know if they still are.

http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=11

Steelheart
 
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