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Discussion Starter #1

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I don't know, there is not really enough information for me to make a judgment call at this point. There is mention of a gun but nothing about when, where, or how it made an appearance and nothing about why she did not call out when she saw the police.

Don
 
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I read the story a bit ago. This is beyond tragic. After what happened to Amber Guyger in Dallas, have these panic-prone police officers learned nothing? My prayers go out to the victim's family and neighbors, especially the neighbor who called the non-emergency police number out of an abundance of concern.
 

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What are they using to screen police applicants?
There seems to be an obvious lack of training at the academy.
It is NORMAL for a homeowner to be armed when they look out their window after hearing suspicious noises at night!
Here's another officer that will probably spend some time in prison, and probably should.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I don't know, there is not really enough information for me to make a judgment call at this point. There is mention of a gun but nothing about when, where, or how it made an appearance and nothing about why she did not call out when she saw the police.

Don
There's really only 2 things I need to know about the story, 1 being that the home owner was shot after a welfare check called in by a concerned neighbor upon observing her front door open, and 2 the police officer shooting two seconds after verbalizing commands and while still verbalizing commands. That can be seen clearly in the bodycam footage of the officer who fired the shot. "Put your hands up, show me your hands, show (shot fired) me your hands!" I'm sorry but this goes right into the same bin as that other Texas officer who is now doing time for murder. It's inexcusable. He didn't identify himself, he didn't give proper time for the occupant, even if they were armed, to be made aware that the police were on scene and they need to put the weapon down so that whatever might be going on can be sorted out and addressed. Imagine walking to the window of your house wondering why someone was walking around outside your house with a flashlight in the middle of the night. Everyone reading this would have a gun in their hand. Then you get a light in your face so you can't see who is yelling at you. Then you are dead.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/raw-fwpd-bodycam-video_Dallas-Fort-Worth-562925812.html
 

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Too many Police Officers because of their training believe they are in a combat zone and answer a call or perform a traffic stop ready to engage "the enemy", not to protect and serve.
 

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What are they using to screen police applicants?
Very likely, their ability to get across a welcome mat. I mean, would you take a job as an LEO these days? I wouldn't if they offered me $200k a year. No way.
 

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There were a lot of mistakes made but in the cop's defense, this wasn't necessarily the simple "just a welfare check" it's being made out to be. Sure, the neighbor called in to the non-emergency number but his basis for concern wasn't like she hadn't been seen or heard from for days. He specifically mentioned an open door as the reason he wanted a police response and to me, as I'd suppose to most any rational person, that sounds more like a possible break-in than a medical emergency or someone's butt bein' stuck in the bathtub. In case of one of the latter, you'd prob'ly call the fire dept anyway, not the cops. I can therefore understand why they would anticipate encountering an armed perp or perps as they approached and be on alert. His first main screw-up was prob'ly not identifying himself as a police officer, at least as far as CYA procedure but whether that would've changed anything can only be speculated.

As for what happened, it's tragic and even more so that it'll be turned into a race thing. Most likely, all the cop could see was a silhouette and prob'ly couldn't even distinguish it as male or female. There was nothing racial about it beyond coincidence but all the attention focused there, will detract from efforts to analyze and correct what all really went wrong. It's hard to blame the training because there's a difference between going through training and actually being trained. It doesn't always take and the end result actually depends more on the individual, than the process. There are always those few that think they know better than the teacher. By the same token, there are those who try but simply cannot apply what they've learned. All I can say is, that is one jury I would not want to be on.
 

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So many questions I could ask, so few of them will be answered.

One of the biggest questions I have is this: Why didn't any of the officer's involved in this call EVER say "Fort Worth Police" or other wise identify themselves as police officers? Did I miss them saying that in this incident?

Another question I have is: Why didn't any of the officer's go to the open door and ask if anyone was occupying the dwelling, and if they were a resident or not? This question, and the identify yourself problem, would have changed the outcome of this incident for the better.

Then again, remember, hindsight is 20:20.

I also have a bet that this WILL become a racially motivated issue, if it already hasn't.
 

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I am usually the first guy to defend the police and give them the benefit of the doubt, but unless she had the gun in her hand and it was pointed at the cop there is not much here to defend. Even then it would be reasonable to suspect someone who saw people with flashlights in their yard might retrieve their weapon.
 

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I still wonder what's so hard about picking up a phone and calling a residence to see what's happening - pretty sure that the police can find out people's telephone numbers fairly easily (or the neighbor could have done that too!)
You pull up outside the house, place a call, state who you are and why you were there (Police, neighbor was worried, saw your door open...please turn on your porch light and let us know you are okay).

A stupid and senseless tragedy that stems from pitiful procedures and even more pitiful "training".
 
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It's a welfare check, not serving a felony warrant.

Doors were open, lights inside were on. Can someone explain why none of these officers didn't just knock on the door or ring the doorbell?

Last time I checked, a welfare check is done to make contact with the person and verify that they are safe and not in distress. I don't see how snooping and pooping through the back yard at 2:30 in the morning is checking on someone's welfare.

On the other hand, merely knocking on the door and identifying yourself is a great way to make contact with the inhabitants of the house.
 

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Very likely, their ability to get across a welcome mat. I mean, would you take a job as an LEO these days? I wouldn't if they offered me $200k a year. No way.
^^^^^^ This.
They do something right they get criticized.
They do something wrong they get criticized.
When there isn't enough info on what they did they get criticized.
Everyone knows how to do the job better than they do.
Politicians and the public are doing everything they can
to render law enforcement impotent and irrelevant.
Armchair quarterbacking police is now an Olympic sport.
Groups celebrate the fact that one gets killed in the line of duty.
The enthusiasm is palpable for denegrating any action they take
whether the facts are available or not.
The sherriff's dept. for my county is suing the county because their
lack of manpower is endangering the officers.
State patrol has lowered hiring age to 19. 19!!!
Seattle police is vastly understaffed.
Gee, I wonder why.......................
 

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It's a welfare check, not serving a felony warrant.

Doors were open, lights inside were on. Can someone explain why none of these officers didn't just knock on the door or ring the doorbell?

Last time I checked, a welfare check is done to make contact with the person and verify that they are safe and not in distress. I don't see how snooping and pooping through the back yard at 2:30 in the morning is checking on someone's welfare.

On the other hand, merely knocking on the door and identifying yourself is a great way to make contact with the inhabitants of the house.
There might be a good deal of missing background information that makes it easy to simplify 'the way it should be done'.

Prior activity in the neighborhood? At that particular residence? Were there any noises or activities in the nearby area that made the officer wary?

Just as an aside, about 30 seconds of research shows that the area the incident happened in is in one of the highest crime areas of Fort Worth. Maybe not 'merely knocking on the door' was actually a rational decision.

The outcome was a tragedy. The officer made a mistake. IF something had been done differently, it wouldn't have happened.

Not sure it's possible to be too confident, without a few more details than the media offers.
 
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^^^^^^ This.
They do something right they get criticized.
They do something wrong they get criticized.
When there isn't enough info on what they did they get criticized.
Everyone knows how to do the job better than they do.
Politicians and the public are doing everything they can
to render law enforcement impotent and irrelevant.
Armchair quarterbacking police is now an Olympic sport.
Groups celebrate the fact that one gets killed in the line of duty.
The enthusiasm is palpable for denegrating any action they take
whether the facts are available or not.
The sherriff's dept. for my county is suing the county because their
lack of manpower is endangering the officers.
State patrol has lowered hiring age to 19. 19!!!
Seattle police is vastly understaffed.
Gee, I wonder why.......................
Government officials at all levels should be criticized, lest they forget their sovereign, the source of their authority.

There are probably many reasons why so many law enforcement organizations are understaffed, but I'll add a couple more.

1). The complete lack of respect for authority. Look how many times we hear that respect must be earned. That is another fallacy. Respect is due. It certainly can be easily lost, but respect is due to those in positions of authority. Of course, those in positions of authority must respect us as the ultimate source of their authority. That badge they wear represents the authority of the citizens they serve--not the name over the door where they muster.

2). The problematic youth of young adults. How many young adults made "mistakes" that disqualify them for law enforcement work? I'm not saying it shouldn't and I'm no big fan of releasing criminals because of "sentencing reform". I sure as heck don't want a bunch of potheads or juvenile car jackers as cops. If qualified people aren't applying, don't lower the standards, do a better job of recruiting.
 

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^^^^^^ This.
They do something right they get criticized.
They do something wrong they get criticized.
When there isn't enough info on what they did they get criticized.
Everyone knows how to do the job better than they do.
Politicians and the public are doing everything they can
to render law enforcement impotent and irrelevant.
Armchair quarterbacking police is now an Olympic sport.
Groups celebrate the fact that one gets killed in the line of duty.
The enthusiasm is palpable for denegrating any action they take
whether the facts are available or not.
The sherriff's dept. for my county is suing the county because their
lack of manpower is endangering the officers.
State patrol has lowered hiring age to 19. 19!!!
Seattle police is vastly understaffed.
Gee, I wonder why.......................
The very same problems they have in Education, which started years earlier. If you want to see where Law Enforcement is headed look at your local school system.

Get involved


OR


Buy lots of popcorn.


 

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It's a welfare check, not serving a felony warrant.

Doors were open, lights inside were on. Can someone explain why none of these officers didn't just knock on the door or ring the doorbell?

Last time I checked, a welfare check is done to make contact with the person and verify that they are safe and not in distress. I don't see how snooping and pooping through the back yard at 2:30 in the morning is checking on someone's welfare.

On the other hand, merely knocking on the door and identifying yourself is a great way to make contact with the inhabitants of the house.
In my area when LEO do a welfare check after a call comes in they will approach the house quietly and walk around and listen through any windows they can listening for any signs of abuse before finally knocking on the door.

I have not watched the video because I am at work, I'll watch it later.
 

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Regarding training, with all the hate and abuse cops have received over the past many years I bet most departments are
having a VERY tough time getting recruits. Thus, departments are probably having to lower their standards and take what
they can get.

I'm not supporting or defending what this guy did but, cops are held to a much higher standard of excellence than most
other trades.

All the Best,
D. White
 
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