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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was at the range the other day, and it was one of those days where I just couldn't get a good group, that I was satisfied with. I thought to myself, well in a defensive situation there is no ten ring. I then questioned myself, do I not have a duty to be the best shot that I can be, not just for myself but if a shooting scrape goes down in a public area, I feel I owe it to them (bystanders) to be accurate with my shots. So I don't just protect myself from the BG but I protect other people from my fire. How do y'all feel about that?


Also another question, if a hypothetical shooting scrape begins and you see the opportunity to escape safely, do we as carriers of weapons, have the un-written duty to defend others that do not carry (for whatever there reasons may be)?
 

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wow tough when you put it out there like that..

ya i dont stress over not having a perfect score in a real life you shoot what you can, should always try for the center but on one is perfect, it's a unperfect world that you would carry a gun in the first place.

as for by standards ya you do have a responsibility to keep your bullets on target, with that said we are'nt machines.. you just do your best hopefully no one else gets hurt but when it's them or me it's always gonna be them (them being the BG's) although i HOPE no by standards get hurt and i'll make every attempt to avoid that if someones drawing down on me im gonna take the risk even if others are near by.. cause if i dont im dead for sure.

luckly most defenseive shootings happen at close range so as long as someones not directly behind your target you'll probably be in good shape.. although regardless if there is or not if someones coming at you like they're gonna kill you the last thing you're gonna worry about is some smoe near by.

as for protecting others.. well there is no duty, and for example in my state they actually recommend you DO NOT get involved.. they suggest calling 911 like anyone else and stay out of it..

in OHIO you can use deadly force to defend someone.. HOWEVER, and this is the tricky part, later it has to be proven that the person you defended would have had every right to do the same as if they was the ones that pulled the trigger..

now that sounds fair until you realized the true implications of it, the situation is not that YOU thought they was in danger and within right to fire, but that they actually was in the right..

example you come across two people fighting and you choose to defend one of them you better hope the guy you defended did'nt start the fight or your looking at prison and a homicide charge.

anyway do CCW'ers have a duty to protect others? oh hell no.. not even the cops have that duty.. would "I"? well depends on the situation.. someone shows up shooting the place up then ya im gonna step up to the plate.. if on the other hand two people are fist fighting then i'll probably just watch the show.. now if one for example has a knife and the other is on the ground and about to be stabbed.. well.. i'd probably step in.. it's hard to say since every situation will be different.

ok so i kinda rambled on..

bottom line

1. no accuracy does not have to be perfect.. humans are'nt
2. yes you have responsibility to avoid bystanders.
3. no duty to protect but situation will vary greatly sometimes it would be just and right to get involved other times it would be foolish, dangerous or just plain wrong.
 

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Another thing to remember is if you do come across two or more people engaged in what looks like a life threatening situation from your viewpoint take into consideration that one of those people could be a police officer.

Not a good thing when you shoot a plainclothes cop who is trying to apprehend a suspect.

As far as defending others---like joe said it's sticky. As a civilian, protect yourself and protect your family. You have a strong base to stand on in court in that case.

But if you shoot and kill the BG who was holding a gun to the grocery store cashier who you don't know from Adam the DA will have a field day with you in many states.
 

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good point NYPD.. which brings up a few thoughts about plain clothes officers..

my understanding is they have to identify them selves as police officers.. but heres the tricky thing.. i some times here of people posing as officers.. sometimes they even have cars dressed up like a cruiser.. uniforms the whole shebang..

but with plan clothes officers all they're gonna have is a badge.. a badge that could be faked.. now on the off chance someone starts coming after you saying their a cop in plain clothes how can you tell?

reason why i ask is im reminded of a story just a few months ago where a OC'er (who had a CHL but was OC'ing anyway) and a officer(s) in plain clothes ran towards him with guns drawn..

in that situation it seems perfectly within reason they would be mistaken as BG's..
shoot them and you'll being spending a long time in prison. that is if you make it to jail alive.. but if you dont and they are BG's just saying they're cops you could very well end up dead.

whats your thoughts?
 

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The only people I have a duty to protect are myself and my loved ones. Beyond that, I'm exposing myself in a bad way legally afterwards.

Also, the others (assuming they are of legal age etc) made the choice to not have the ability to defend themselves. Yes, that is a harsh way to put it but the world isn't a playground.

Steelheart
 

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so if you came across a woman being raped or a man being stabbed in a mugging gone wrong you'd just walk on by?

i guess they dont call ya steelheart for nothin.
 

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Only in extreme cases, as stated by joe sixpack above, and then of course myself, and my family, other than that, everyone has the right to defend themselves.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
in response to Joe: I had situation similar to that happen to me about a year ago (BG acting as a cop). He pulled me over for no reason. As he approached my car I noticed he was wearing blue jeans a sweat shirt and a ball cap. Instinctively I slipped my hand over my Kel-tec and I know i shouldn't have but I stepped out of the truck to give myself a better drawing opportunity. He asked if he could see my ID and I returned the question and he said He was off duty at the time and legally he couldn't pull people over in an unmarked car ( He was driving a Crown Vic, with concealed lights) he just casually turned around and told me to have a good evening , never told me why I was being pulled over. About 6 months later he was arrested for impersonating a police officer and had a large number of assault rifles, obviously I don't take a liberal stance to guns but if someone is that radical, having those weapons is unnerving.
 

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The undercover cop idea must be really what these guys think will work.

And it does!! We had a guy locally, that went to the door several times(in an apartment complex), used this cover!!! telling woman he was checking on a neighbor could he come in so he could watch from there! Do you have to guess what happened after he got in?

But back to the subject of this thread!

1. It always would bother me to see a man chasing another man, or woman, while he is carrying a gun (and maybe the chasee is not armed) but my mind would keep me out of that one. Chaser could be a cop, so I observe, call 911, and do not break my cover by drawing.

2. Chaser, has a knife; chasee is screaming bloody murder and looks terrified. Here the situation is a lot tougher, LEO's normally do not chase someone with a knife!! Do I let the chasee be stabbed, or take some action. (Note I did not say draw and take him out at this point) Maybe draw, and put out the challenge "Stop now!! or I will be forced to stop you" or some such thing, then react to what ever the chaser does, including shooting if he changes targets and goes for me, or continues after the chasee.

3. Finally, the oldest one in the books. Chaser, is armed with long gun, shooting anyone in sight while running down a mall, or store. God help me I hope I can either get to cover or concealment, draw, and stop a mass killing.

Now, as my kids are grown, gone, and would not be with me. The only change to these, would be if the wife happened to be with me! In that case, move in front of her and while watching my six, head for the exit calling for 911 "which I actually programmed into my speed dial, why you may ask? Easier to hit one button under stress than 3". Only taking action if she or I become the object of any of these fools attention.

I am not the worlds protector, nor am I paid by anyone to take on the BG's. The only exception being the 3rd one, where I am not sure I could just leave if others were in danger and live with myself.
 

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I feel this sums up my position:

The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. 2002.

Discretion is the better part of valor

Caution is preferable to rash bravery. Said by Falstaff in King Henry the Fourth, Part One, by William Shakespeare.

http://www.bartleby.com/59/3/discretionis.html
 

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joe sixpack said:
so if you came across a woman being raped or a man being stabbed in a mugging gone wrong you'd just walk on by?

i guess they dont call ya steelheart for nothin.
Rather than get into anything with you, especially with you taking a shot at my screen name, why don't you read (and attempt to understand) this.
http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_dangers_in_intervention.asp

You site fairly extreme examples intended to get a response. Keep in mind that old Chinese proverb, be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Steelheart
 

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Steelheart said:
Rather than get into anything with you, especially with you taking a shot at my screen name, why don't you read (and attempt to understand) this.
http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_dangers_in_intervention.asp

You site fairly extreme examples intended to get a response. Keep in mind that old Chinese proverb, be careful what you wish for, you might get it.

Steelheart
need to clear up a few things here.
1. i dont wish for nothin, i have more drama in my life then i wish to share already i dont need to rescue anyone.
2. rape and murder seem like the most clear cut cases where action needs to be taken, like i said i would'nt get involved in say a burglary or street fight.. i've seen plenty in my short days and they rarely amount to more then some missing teeth, black eyes and sometimes a broken bone or two.. anyone using force to stop a fist fight is just reckless what "lesser extreme examples" would you like?
i used rape and murder because if you're not gonna act on those then you wont act on anything.
3. you say you will defend only friends and family, cause everyone else has their own opportunity to defend them selves (i take that as tough titty if you're being killed or raped you had a chance to carry a gun and you choose not to, jokes on you) my response to that is does every member of your family carry a gun? your wife? your kids? if not well you're not with them 24/7.. what happens if someone assaults them when you're not around? would'nt you hope someone would help them? or would you be perfectly fine if say 5 people sat by and watched them murdered? my guess is you would be pretty damn pissed at them, but you'ed have no right.
i might also suggest that just carrying a gun will not grant you any guarantees everyone needs help at some point or another rather they carry or not.

while your write up talks about complications this is true i never denied there could'nt be, this is exactly why i dont suggest getting involved unless someone is about to be murdered or raped.. but i know my self well enough that if i sat by and watched someone get killed i would never forgive my self.

i dont assume to tell you what to do but i know i would hope if one of my family members or friends was being murdered or raped that someone would help them.. do on to others as you would have them do on to you.

that is all.. if you wish to continue the conversation feel free to PM..

you're plenty entitled to your opinion and views do as you please in your own life.. i dont think i could sit and watch though if not for the victims sake.. then my own.
 

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Well in Colorado it is spelled out for us. (But I would think that proof is difficult.)

1. Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:



1. The actor has reasonable ground to believe and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury; or
2. The other person is using or reasonably appears about to use physical force against an occupant of a dwelling or business establishment while committing or attempting to commit burglary as defined in sections 18-4-202 to 18-4-204; or
3. The other person is committing or reasonably appears about to commit kidnapping as defined in section 18-3-301 or 18-3-302, robbery as defined in section 18-4-301 or 18-4-302, sexual assault as set forth in section 18-3-402 or in section 18-3-403 as it existed prior to July 1, 2000, or assault as defined in sections 18-3-202 and 18-3-203.

I need to put on my lawyer hat and find all of those sections.
 

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Having once spent 2800 dollars in legal fees to exonerate myself, it'd have to be real cut and dry before I will get involved in someone else's business. If it's obvious what's going in, maybe, like the guy that was coming home from his deer lease in east Texas one year, had a flat, pulled off the change the tire. While he was changing the tire, a cop pulled over a guy in the north bound lane. He watches as the perp jumps the officer and they wrestle for the officer's gun. Deer hunter grabs his rifle out of the truck, chambers a round, puts a high powered rifle round into the guy just as he's standing over the officer with the officer's gun about to shoot him.

DPS made a hero out of that guy, gave him some sort of an award. :D But, if I ain't for sure whether I should, I won't, and it'll take a lot to get me involved in ANYthing, frankly. Some crack ho and her pimp, I have a phone and I know how to dial 911. I have no legal duty to help others and I won't in most cases, I'd suspect, anyway.
 

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Wow I will protect myself and family or close friends and the obvious man raping a women, but...what if there just some nut case couple haveing ruff sex in a park. or a women chasing a man with a knife that just raped her 7 year old daughter. CCW does not prepare us to be LEO.

LEO train all the time on shoot don't shoot situations and even then they get it wrong 41 shots the guy pulled his wallet, 50 some shots the guy was getting married the next day. that could happen to us and we don't have a city of attorneys behind us. And what about these partial vidio tapes 15 seconds on a phone camera can hang you in court. This scares me to death.
Just my opinion.
 

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A CHL or whatever your state calls it, does not make you a policeman. Therefore, you have no duty. Do whatever best suits your own conscience.
 

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Smokewagon said:
A CHL or whatever your state calls it, does not make you a policeman. Therefore, you have no duty. Do whatever best suits your own conscience.
Amen to that! I know when I would react mentally. But nothing prepares you too act physically!!
 

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Heres something i recieved in an email:

On Monday, May 22, Sandra Suter was standing in the check-out line of the Wal-Mart in Spring Hill, Fla. when she saw several store employees wrestling with a knife-wielding man.

The employees had apprehended 50-year-old Willie J. Redding of Brookville--reported by the St. Petersburg Times to have previous convictions for selling drugs and dealing in stolen property--attempting to steal a VCR.

Dropping his loot, Redding pulled a small blade and lunged, cutting two employees, according to a Hernando County sheriff's report.

"Drop the knife! Drop the knife!" one of the bleeding employees was yelling.

Mrs. Suter, a 53-year-old grandmother, reacted as she had been trained.

"I have a concealed weapons permit," she announced as she walked up to the armed assailant and presented the .40-caliber pistol she keeps in her purse. "Either drop the knife, or I'll shoot you."

Getting smart in a hurry, Mr. Redding surrendered, was jailed, and gained release the next day on $3,000 bond.

"I just did what I thought was right," Grandma Suter told Jamie Malernee of the St. Petersburg Times. "It was the first time I've ever had to pull my gun other than at the firing range."

Suter's husband and grown children are calling the 5-foot-3 homemaker "a hero," reporter Malernee admits.

But then the Times story goes on:

"Spokesmen for the Hernando County Sheriff's Office and Wal-Mart advise civilians not to get involved in such situations. 'We want to keep our stores a pleasant place to shop, so we would never encourage our customers to arm themselves,' said Wal-Mart spokesman Tom Williams. ...

"Shopper Lorinda Smith, who was in the candy aisle during the confrontation, said Tuesday that she was more frightened by Suter's gun then the man's knife.

" 'That scared the c--- out of me, that someone could have a gun in the store,' said Smith of Hernando Beach. 'This one lady was in there with her children and when she saw (the gun) she was like, "Get on the ground! Get on the ground!" If I was there with my kids, I would have had a heart attack.' "

Frightened at the sight of a responsible fellow citizen--a five-foot-three grandmother--using a legally licensed handgun to stop a crime without even firing a shot.

Think about that. Would the ladies have been frightened if uniformed policemen had shown up and brandished guns in the process of arresting three-time loser Willie Redding? Of course not--even though, statistically, police officers accidentally shoot the wrong person in far more cases than do citizens with legally issued concealed-carry permits.

"NRA officials did not return phone calls," reporter Malernee continues. "Kim Mariani, spokeswoman for Handgun Control Inc., said Suter's actions, while brave, could have hurt someone.

" 'God forbid something went wrong," Mariani said. "It just escalates the situation, and a lot of times it's unnecessary.' "

Reporter Jamie Malernee has clearly done what she thought was her job, calling all parties who might be expected to comment on the incident. (We'll leave aside for the moment the fact that the NRA, which endorsed the gun control bills of 1934 and 1968 and the Brady Bill, actually comprises a larger gun control advocacy group than Handgun Control--that placing a call to Gun Owners of America or JPFO might have been more appropriate in any search for "balance.")

But clearly, the formulaic structure of this story--even though it's admirably complete--seeks to "balance" any implication that the carrying and use of firearms by law-abiding citizens is natural or proper.

I believe something important is going on, here.

# # #

On May 31, I sent out a syndicated column consisting of a proposed list of 15 generic questions for this year's political candidates.
 
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