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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey guys,

I'm considering picking up a .45ACP and I've read a number of posts on here about the PT 145 and Millenium Pro and how much everyone loves theirs.

I know that Taurus copies firearms from other manufacturers, and makes them better in most cases(I have a PT92AFS, modeled after the Beretta 92 series).

My dumb question: What is the PT145/Millenium Pro a copy of? Is it a copy of the Springfield Armory XD series?

Thanks in advance!
 

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The Millennium Pro series is a relative original design of Taurus... and I say relatively only because it uses the very traditional Browning barrel cam action which is one of the most common actions in existence.

Taurus broke ground with the Millennium series creating a small, yet high capacity series of pocket pistols. It is obvious that the design similarities extends into their 24/7 series and the new OSS series.

Taurus actually bought the Beretta factory in Brazil (including all machinery and designs) when Beretta ceased it's contract with the Brazilian government. Patents were obviously purchased from S&W. But with the advent of the polymer frame gun, Taurus has been breaking fresh ground.

Actually Taurus has been recognized recently as doing ground breaking work with several areas of both manufacturing and materials. Taurus has produced the first all titanium revolvers and slides for the Millennium Pro series.

So, this isn't your father's TAURUS anymore!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Cimarron - the next time I go to the range, I gotta try one out.

I'm up in the air between a 1911 and the smaller Millenium Series. I'm not sure what I want just yet, all I know is that it has to be a .45ACP. I've definately have to go to the range and fire a few different guns before I make my final decision...

I have pretty big hands, so I'm not sure how much I'm going to like the smaller guns... but we'll see.
 

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Actually, the Millenium series was born in the image of Kel-Tec's P-11 and P-40... I have both, but having played with the early Taurus guns, waited for the current generation to buy the PT145... today's guns are a far cry from the originals.
 

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9x19 said:
Actually, the Millenium series was born in the image of Kel-Tec's P-11 and P-40... I have both, but having played with the early Taurus guns, waited for the current generation to buy the PT145... today's guns are a far cry from the originals.
Most interesting... I'd love to work on documenting that. Can you give me any more info?
 

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I can see the superficial similarities, however the inner workings of the two guns are dramatically different... the Kel-Tec still uses a hammer (though concealed), but the Taurus has always used a distinctive striker system. I wonder if there aren't better explainations for the looks. I have heard folks rationalize the numbering designation... the P11 and the PT111, but I also discovered that Taurus had already adopted that designation for the PT911 from their 900 series style which predates the P11. Would love to find more information.
 

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Let's get something straight here. There is a gun designer named Sirkris. His history is thus. He is a freelance gun designer. Has had or does have major input onto many gun companies makes and models. Grendel, Kahr, Kel-tec, Colt 2000 pistol,Israeli pistols and rifles, South African rifles and pistols, Taurus, and a 30 round .22magnum rimfire magnum pistol were all designed with his major input. As a badge or mark of honor, Sirkris designs the frames to look and be similar enough to show that this is his stamp upon the shooting world. Like a artist signing his painting , Sirkris, tell tale marquee will let knowledgeable people know, that it was he who" put the paint on the canvass". He is to pistols what Eugene Stoner is to rifles and machineguns. He does not sit on his laurels and is continually looking for new challanges. He helped Knight's Armaments design a cutting edge pistol that functioned well , was accurate, and dureable. They in turn sold the rights to Colt. Colt decided to fiddle with the design and made changes. Made the pistol bigger, made internal and external modifications to a design that didn't need them. Then put lawyer approved modifications in as well. This became the Colt 2000. It became a dog of a gun and had so many teething problems, Colt tried to unceremoniously sweep the whole debacle under the rug.Kind of like the Dornius and Dixon Bren 10 of gun fame. They lost their shirts as well considering the R&D money that went into the gun. The .22 magnum rimfire pistol he designed, functioned well enough, though there were some minor teething troubles at the start. The pistol did not sell as there was no market for it. Mas Ayoob and Evan Marshall tested the Grendel P31 and gave it glowing reports, but that was not enough to save it. Both authors pull no punches when they critique a gun. This guy has input at many gun companies in the past.So if things look familar on a pistol or rifle, and he was on the team or the soul creator, then do not be surprised.All his designs and the guns he worked on were different enough internally and were copyrighted byeach individual gun maker. Guess what happens when one infringes on another's patent in the cut throat gun market.? You either cease and desist from manufacture or get sued out of business by the company who holds the copyrights. Tell that to S&W who had to change their trigger on the Sigma because Glock got them on the trigger design. Building a knock off look alike or function gun gets one out of business real fast. Sirkris had the power and know how to put his moniker on a gun without this happening and he saw to it.
 

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Cimarron,

I didn't mean to imply that the Taurus and Kel-Tec shared an internal design (they left that to Skyy and Talon) ... just that Kel-Tec's P-11 and P-40 proved the viability of ultra small autos in 9mm and .40, and their market acceptance helped Taurus decide to launch the Milleniums which, conicidentally I'm sure, resembled the market leader at the time... Kel-Tec.

Talon (now defunct)
 

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Yeah, it'd be sorta hard for the millennium to be a Kel Tec knock off since it came out within MONTHS of the Kel Tec and Kahr K9. That was about the time I was lookin' for a carry gun since I just got my Texas CCW. I got the Kel Tec P11 shortly after they became available and about a week later read about the Millennium in a gun magazine. DOH! LOL, but the KT has been a great carry gun. I think the rush to get these little 9s on the market had more to do with sweeping shall issue CCW legislation around the country at the time than with any copying. Rather than wait to see how KT or Kahr did, they were all in a rush to get into the CCW market with a full power pocket sized nine, a concealed carry dream gun. ;D The first Millenniums had a few problems initially that were corrected quickly, probably a result of a rush to get in on the new market niche created by carry reform.

BTW, I've got a Grendel P12 (Grendel was a Kelgren company before he started Kel Tec) that very much resembles the P11. I don't know if it's a Sirkris design, but I'd lay odds on it. LOL I remember reading about the guy in regards to the delay blowback of that .22 mag that had some sort of chamber flutes to retard the action enough to drop pressures, a novel approach. This was a Sirkris innovation IIRC.
 

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Isn't it interesting... and profitable to us all... to discover these things. As with others, I do get upset with the inference that Taurus is "simply" a knock-off company. A little research is profitable for us all. Thanks!
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Hey now Cimarron, I did not infer that Taurus was just a knockoff company. I simply stated that " Taurus copies firearms from other manufacturers, and makes them better in most cases".

I know perfectly well about the history of Forjas Taurus and their deal with Beretta in 1980 which brought about the creation/reproduction of the PT92, their first "copy".

My original intent was to find out other models of pistols which Taurus currently produces that were the result of copying another manufacturer's firearm design.

My reason is this: I am a VERY HAPPY PT92 owner, and in fact, I prefer it over the Beretta 92FS due to it's safety position and affordability. Based on this, I would like to find out more about other guns that Taurus has improved so that I can decide which .45ACP I want to buy. Currently, I'm leaning towards a 1911, but I also need a carry weapon, so I might decide to go smaller - in fact, does anyone know if Taurus plans to make a smaller 1911, perhaps with a 3" or 4" barrel?

I am in no way inferring that Taurus is simply a knock-off company - I believe their products are excellent and I would DEFINATELY buy another Taurus. Even if they produced knock-off's of the "real thing", I would still buy a Taurus, because Taurus makes quality affordable.
 

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viras... If I came across strong, please forgive. I'm trying to do some research into Taurus' history and I have been continually surprised at what I'm discovering. Why do so many Taurus revolvers look like S&W? Because S&W and Taurus were both owned at one point by a parent company and specs (and licenses) were exchanged.

The one consistant thing I am finding is your point... Taurus has a history of Japan's consistent improvement... they always "make things better"

Thanks for your input and participation
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
No worries, mate - there's nothing to forgive!

Ha ha - I completely agree with your Japanese analogy - Taurus is like the Toyota/Honda/Nissan of the Gun industry.
  • They took the Beretta 92FS and made it SO much better by repositioning the safety, giving it more ammo capacity, and producing it at a very affordable price.
  • They took the original 1911 and hot-rodded it with a polished feed ramp, lowered ejection port, ambi-safety, beavertail memory pad grip safety, custom grip panels, vented trigger, and Heine's straight eight 2-dot sights - it's like getting a customized 1911 for 1/2 the price of a stock Para/Colt/Browning/Kimber/Springfield Armory
 

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Viras. We were also interjecting a little history into the thread. We do that whenever something like this comes up and the staff are all versed in some form of firearms history. There are a lot of obscure facts that others do not know about or will ever see. So we try to bring them to light. Happy trails. :)
 

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You know... I've looked at this picture for the longest time trying to figure out what was wrong...

and then it dawned on me that the "take down pin" had been pulled. I don't know if it was intentional... trying to make the Millennium look more like the Kel-Tec P11, or someone just hadn't put it back together again.

Plus I felt the size might have been out of porportion... so I found this pic of a P11 with a PT145 for a better size comparison
 
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