Converting a 455 to .460 Rowland?
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I'm sure this doesn't even come into play, but your warranty is obviously voided once you do that. I think if it's safe for the S&W 625 then it should be okay for the Tracker. Just call Clark Custom to be sure. That would be a really interesting conversion. I myself am fascinated by the 460 Rowland. I know they have conversion kits for 1911's but I don't have and don't particularly want a 1911. Maybe I'll do a little digging and see if it can be done with my XD-45. ;D (Doubt it)
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Check this link on the history and ballistics of the 460 Rowland compared to the 45 Super, 45 ACP, and 44 Magnum---you might be quite surprised:
http://www.realguns.com/archives/106.htm
http://www.realguns.com/archives/106.htm
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Interesting article, thanks for the link NYPD.
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picking up a 6.5" tracker 455 for hunting. anybody pull this conversion off? I am wanting to run 45 super and possibly 460 rowland if the gun can handle the pressures. loading for it and brass should't be an issue. just cylinder strength.
mike
mike
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I have been doing some research on this subject. It seems some people are running 45 super but not sure really at what pressure. Anybody on here ever run 45 super out of either a Tracker 450 or 455. I know these are medium frame compared to the S&W 625, but they are 5 shot and the smiths are running the 460 rowland as converted by Clarks Custom Guns. I plan on calling him to see if he has done any of these trackers. As for where the pressures fall, here is the break down.
1) 45 acp - 19k-20k
2) 45 acp+ 23k
3) 45 super - 28k
4) 460 Rowland - 39k
I know these revolvers were rated at one time by taurus for +p. How does +p long colt compare to +p acp. From what I gather, +p acp is higher pressures. Starline makes the brass for both the 45 super and 460. They say they are reinforced in the web and the heat treating is different than regular 45 acp. Other reviews on the web show no difference in the web area. I plan to call Starline. Supposedly the extra strentgh in the brass is needed in semi auto 1911's because part of the case is left exposed. In a revolver, that is not the case. The entire case is supported. So a couple options are using 45 super brass and working up to 460 Rowland pressure if the 45 super brass is just as strong as the 460 brass just shorter to fit standard acp chambers. If the 460 brass is stronger than 45 super brass, one could trim it down to fit 45 acp cylinder. so the question really becomes, how much can the factory cylinder withstand. Obviously i would start with 45 acp+ rounds and slowly work up to 45 super before ever trying 460 Rowland. These would just be hunting rounds for use as a woods/trail gun. I would shoot 45 acp normally but am curious if it can be done.
I know the issue is around safety and liability and stuff. My questions are for the engineering and design stand point. I take full responsibilty for any tinkering I may try so please no one come in here saying I would never run those pressures in that gun because the factory doesn'trate it for that. Smith and Wesson doesn't rate the 625 for 460 Rowland either but Clark does it and says its safe. If you have factual evidence supposrting why it isn't possible, by all means please provide it. Things like cylinder wall thickness, metalurgy, proof of blown up cylinders. On the contrary, if you have proof it works please elaborate..
Mike
1) 45 acp - 19k-20k
2) 45 acp+ 23k
3) 45 super - 28k
4) 460 Rowland - 39k
I know these revolvers were rated at one time by taurus for +p. How does +p long colt compare to +p acp. From what I gather, +p acp is higher pressures. Starline makes the brass for both the 45 super and 460. They say they are reinforced in the web and the heat treating is different than regular 45 acp. Other reviews on the web show no difference in the web area. I plan to call Starline. Supposedly the extra strentgh in the brass is needed in semi auto 1911's because part of the case is left exposed. In a revolver, that is not the case. The entire case is supported. So a couple options are using 45 super brass and working up to 460 Rowland pressure if the 45 super brass is just as strong as the 460 brass just shorter to fit standard acp chambers. If the 460 brass is stronger than 45 super brass, one could trim it down to fit 45 acp cylinder. so the question really becomes, how much can the factory cylinder withstand. Obviously i would start with 45 acp+ rounds and slowly work up to 45 super before ever trying 460 Rowland. These would just be hunting rounds for use as a woods/trail gun. I would shoot 45 acp normally but am curious if it can be done.
I know the issue is around safety and liability and stuff. My questions are for the engineering and design stand point. I take full responsibilty for any tinkering I may try so please no one come in here saying I would never run those pressures in that gun because the factory doesn'trate it for that. Smith and Wesson doesn't rate the 625 for 460 Rowland either but Clark does it and says its safe. If you have factual evidence supposrting why it isn't possible, by all means please provide it. Things like cylinder wall thickness, metalurgy, proof of blown up cylinders. On the contrary, if you have proof it works please elaborate..
Mike
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I talked to Clark at Clark Custom guns. He said if the revolver is chmbered in 41 mag, then no problem firing 460 rowland through it. He wasn't exactly familiar with the Tracker so I explained it is a medium frame revolver. He said if its a revolver and chambered in 41 mag it can handle 460 afte having the cylinder chamber recut to accept the 460 case. For what its worth.
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I also talked to starline brass. Their 45 super brass and 460 Rowland brass are made to the same specifications with one exception. The 460 is slightly longer. They confirmed that both cases can handle the same pressures. So, in order to shoot 460 loads, one does not need the 460 brass. One can use 45 super brass and not have to send the cylinder off to have the chamber lengthened. This also means that the gun will not have to jump regular 45acp rounds due to a longer chamber. With the same size rounds, one can shoot 45acp, 45acp+p, 45 super, and even 460 Rowland loads via the 45 super case safely. Now this does not mean it can be done in a Taurus Tracker. I have found one post where a guy states he is using starline 45 super brass to shoot 45 super loads from his 455 tracker, but does not state what velocities or pressures he is loading to.
So, back to the original question, what is the max operating pressure for this gun? I will be getting it tomorrow so I will take some measurments of Cylinder thickness. If anybody has one in 44mag. please post your cylinder thickness. Keep in mind that 9mm, 357 mag, 40 S&w, and 44 mag all operate in the 35,000 psi range. The old acp case is in the lowly 20,000 psi range because it was designed a long time ago (early 1900's)when brass was weaker and so were the guns. Modern guns, metals, and brass are now working regularly with 35,000-39,000 psi cartridges. So if the brass gets an upgrade, and the guns are already designed to work with modern high pressure rounds, wouldn't it stand to reason that they should be able to deal with an updated 45 round running around 28,000 psi. Of course this is all interpolation but does have some basis in logic. So how does one take theory and move to fact without loosing some fingers in the process
So, back to the original question, what is the max operating pressure for this gun? I will be getting it tomorrow so I will take some measurments of Cylinder thickness. If anybody has one in 44mag. please post your cylinder thickness. Keep in mind that 9mm, 357 mag, 40 S&w, and 44 mag all operate in the 35,000 psi range. The old acp case is in the lowly 20,000 psi range because it was designed a long time ago (early 1900's)when brass was weaker and so were the guns. Modern guns, metals, and brass are now working regularly with 35,000-39,000 psi cartridges. So if the brass gets an upgrade, and the guns are already designed to work with modern high pressure rounds, wouldn't it stand to reason that they should be able to deal with an updated 45 round running around 28,000 psi. Of course this is all interpolation but does have some basis in logic. So how does one take theory and move to fact without loosing some fingers in the process
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well, I have lots of 45 ammo that I have bought and also reload for. The main intended use was to have a revolver that I could use this ammo in for backup while hunting. Then I started reading about 45 super and 460 Rowland and how it works better in Revolvers. I figured if it was safe, then I would have a seperate round to take while hunting with more power than standard 45 with out having to get another gun in another round. Plus the 45 acp revolvers are pretty hard to find so I figured it would hold its value and be a coll addition to my other 45's (Taurus 24/7 OSS, HK45c, Dan Wesson Valor).
Mike
Mike
The obvious question becomes, If the cylinder is long enough, why bother with the .460 Rowland? The .45 Win Mag will trounce the Rowland and do it with lower pressures and has more case volume to better handle heavier bullets. You'll also reduce the amount of "bullet jump" to the forcing cone.
Just an opinion, but I seriously doubt the Tracker has enough strength to handle the Ruger and Contender only 32 kpsi .45 Colt loads (someone would have done it) and the Rowland operates at a much higher pressure level than that. Those loads aren't safe in a S&W N-frame, and the S&W is larger than the Tracker. Five rounds vs six don't mean much when the cylinder is almost .200" smaller in diameter. (1.53" vs. 1.71") At least the .45 Win Mag has some loads that operate at 28 kpsi which is more plausable.
Don't ask me how a cylinder (the S&W N-frame) that can't handle .45 Colt .32 kpsi loads can handle a 40 kpsi load, I don't have an answer. Neither has anyone that I've ever asked...Including Clark Custom.
Just an opinion, but I seriously doubt the Tracker has enough strength to handle the Ruger and Contender only 32 kpsi .45 Colt loads (someone would have done it) and the Rowland operates at a much higher pressure level than that. Those loads aren't safe in a S&W N-frame, and the S&W is larger than the Tracker. Five rounds vs six don't mean much when the cylinder is almost .200" smaller in diameter. (1.53" vs. 1.71") At least the .45 Win Mag has some loads that operate at 28 kpsi which is more plausable.
Don't ask me how a cylinder (the S&W N-frame) that can't handle .45 Colt .32 kpsi loads can handle a 40 kpsi load, I don't have an answer. Neither has anyone that I've ever asked...Including Clark Custom.
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Good point, I will look into this. The idea was never to run real 460 Rowland ammo as this neccesatates recutting the chamber. I was more interested in being able to run 460 pressures as I have found out from Starline that their 45 super brass and 460 brass are the same strength. So one could just buy super brass and load it to 460 pressures (if the gun can handle it) and not have to recut chamber. If I allow myself to recut chamber then the 45 win mag becomes an option. The two issues as I see it arecrossfire said:
#1 cylinder strength as it applies to pressure. This is where the wall thickness comes into play. .049" for the 455 Tracker. However bolt notches are not over chamber like on S&W.
#2 frame strength. The same gun is made in 44 mag. so I imagine frame strength is ok. While the hole in the cylinder is smaller making it stronger to withstand the higher pressures of the 44 mag, the rest of the gun is the same dimensions.
I know they do Rowland conversions on the S&W 625 which is an "N" frame. I am not really interested in going that high in pressue. I am looking at 45 super loads which are around 25k-28k. Buffalo Bore makes some 45 super and 45 auto rim that run around 25k psi. It does make sense that if one is willing to recut cylinder for a longer case, one can get higher velocities at lower pressures. Higher velocity is what we are after in the first place. Chamber pressure is the by product. The question becomes what happens when you try to shoot regular 45 acp with moon clips in a cylinder that has been cut for 45 win mag.
interesting?
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well, for those of you who might be interested, here is some data that I compiled from shooting different rounds through my 6.5" Tracker 455. Now I do not advocate doing this as your results may vary. These loads are above published limits for this gun but seem to be ok. I actually ended up shooting/loading these rounds by sheer accident. I was not planning on doing this the 1st time out but a set of unfortunate circumstances got me these results in a hurry.
A while back I purchased a pound of what I was told was AA#5 to use for loading 45acp. The guy who ran the store sold reloading stuff and had a large container marked aa#5 which he used to give me my 1 lb to try. For everyone out there, if it isn't a sealed factory container of powder, don't buy it!!! This was a first for me and now I know better. Without knowing what AA#5 looks like, we loaded about 10 rounds with 9 grn behind a 185gn Hornady XTP bullet. This is a safe middle of the range load for a 185. I shot these 10 rounds from my full size 1911 and they felt fine. We loaded 150 more. These were the 1st rounds I fired through the 455 when I got it. They seemed much stouter in the revolver. I grabbed a box of ww white box 230 ball and shot a couple of those rounds and they were noticeably softer :???: I figured we screwed up something and stopped shooting. When I got home , I pulled a few bullets and weighed the charge. 9 gns exactly. Things didn't seem to jive so I took my chrono out the next time. Shot the 1st round and got 1250fps from a 185gn bullet. shot 10 more and all the same. Shot some of the ww white box and got somewhere around 900. What ever I was loading was way above what I should have been getting from AA#5. The powder is a flake and I believe it to be Unique. If so pressures are much higher than standard acp loads. By the velocities I am guessing near 45 super levels. maybe a tad less. Maybe around +p+. anyway, we stopped shooting and counted our blessings.
The gun is fine and seemed to handle the ammo without issue. I checked the cylinder and it shows no signs of bulging. The brass was also just standard 45 acp brass and showed no pressure signs or cracks. It came out easy and can be slipped right back into the cylinder. We also shot a few rounds through my 1911 and my hk45c. both showed no brass issue. However, on my Taurus 24/7 oss, the chamber is the most unsupported of all my 45's. Fired brass from this gun has a bulge at the base and will not re-chamber. The HK seems to have a fully supported barrel as well as my 1911. Of course the revolver is 100% supported. I think with a slower burning powder than unique, one can achieve these velocities with even less pressure than I was probably creating and have a load that comes close to 45 super. It would seem that the brass issue is over rated if you have a fully supported barrel.
I can also say that the kick is pretty stout. It definately lets you know you are shooting something more powerful than standard 45 acp. I don't think I would want to even shoot something along the lines of 460 Rowland out of this gun due to the light weight and recoil.
Oh, and we also had loaded 10 rds of 7gns behind a 230 fmj rn before we had figured out what was going on. They clocked around 1050fps out of the tracker.
A while back I purchased a pound of what I was told was AA#5 to use for loading 45acp. The guy who ran the store sold reloading stuff and had a large container marked aa#5 which he used to give me my 1 lb to try. For everyone out there, if it isn't a sealed factory container of powder, don't buy it!!! This was a first for me and now I know better. Without knowing what AA#5 looks like, we loaded about 10 rounds with 9 grn behind a 185gn Hornady XTP bullet. This is a safe middle of the range load for a 185. I shot these 10 rounds from my full size 1911 and they felt fine. We loaded 150 more. These were the 1st rounds I fired through the 455 when I got it. They seemed much stouter in the revolver. I grabbed a box of ww white box 230 ball and shot a couple of those rounds and they were noticeably softer :???: I figured we screwed up something and stopped shooting. When I got home , I pulled a few bullets and weighed the charge. 9 gns exactly. Things didn't seem to jive so I took my chrono out the next time. Shot the 1st round and got 1250fps from a 185gn bullet. shot 10 more and all the same. Shot some of the ww white box and got somewhere around 900. What ever I was loading was way above what I should have been getting from AA#5. The powder is a flake and I believe it to be Unique. If so pressures are much higher than standard acp loads. By the velocities I am guessing near 45 super levels. maybe a tad less. Maybe around +p+. anyway, we stopped shooting and counted our blessings.
The gun is fine and seemed to handle the ammo without issue. I checked the cylinder and it shows no signs of bulging. The brass was also just standard 45 acp brass and showed no pressure signs or cracks. It came out easy and can be slipped right back into the cylinder. We also shot a few rounds through my 1911 and my hk45c. both showed no brass issue. However, on my Taurus 24/7 oss, the chamber is the most unsupported of all my 45's. Fired brass from this gun has a bulge at the base and will not re-chamber. The HK seems to have a fully supported barrel as well as my 1911. Of course the revolver is 100% supported. I think with a slower burning powder than unique, one can achieve these velocities with even less pressure than I was probably creating and have a load that comes close to 45 super. It would seem that the brass issue is over rated if you have a fully supported barrel.
I can also say that the kick is pretty stout. It definately lets you know you are shooting something more powerful than standard 45 acp. I don't think I would want to even shoot something along the lines of 460 Rowland out of this gun due to the light weight and recoil.
Oh, and we also had loaded 10 rds of 7gns behind a 230 fmj rn before we had figured out what was going on. They clocked around 1050fps out of the tracker.
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