Taurus Firearm Forum banner
1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,

I have read that the shorter the barrel on a Judge the tighter the spread/pattern will be using 000 handgun buckshot.

Is this correct?

In other words, the spread using a 2" barrel will be tighter than with a 2.5" barrel which will be tighter than with a 3" barrel.

It seems to me that the opposite would be true.

If it is true, is it due to rifling and centrifugal force spinning the pellets outward?

Thank you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
I doubt that it is the rifling. 000 buck is 10mm/40 caliber. The Judge is chambered for 45 LC. I've experimented with this. I've shot 410 slug and 45 LC from my Judge. The 410 slug performance was erratic and the 45 LC was accurate. This tells me that the rifling isn't engaging on the 410 slug, nor would it engage a 000 pellet.

What I do know is that my 2.5" Public Defender will put four 000 pellets from a Federal 410 pistol shell in the eight ring at seven yards.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,052 Posts
I always get a kick out of "I have read..." without the link to where it was read. :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
I always get a kick out of "I have read..." without the link to where it was read. :D
YOT,

Oh my! Please forgive me. I read it here, in this very forum. But i didn't think to make a note of who said it, when and in which thread.

And I believe the gentleman who made those two excellent videos comparing the Springfield XD and the Public Defender espoused this same belief/opinion.

But alas. I can't tell you whether it was in Part 1 or Part 2 so I am unable to provide you with the minute/second mark where you may find it.

And please, do pardon me for asking a question here.

I feel so silly. Imagine someone foolish enough to ask a question in a firearms forum. My face is red. I'm just blushing with embarrassment.

It's guys like you two who make forums like this a real pleasure to visit.

Thank you.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
Please forgive me. I read it here, in this very forum. But i didn't think to make a note of who said it and in which thread.

And I believe the gentleman who made those two excellent videos comparing the Springfield XD and the Public Defender espoused this belief/opinion.

But alas. I can't tell you whether it was in Part 1 or Part 2 so I am unable to provide you with the minute/second mark where you may find it.

And please, do pardon me for asking a question here.

I feel so silly. Imagine someone foolish enough to ask a question in a firearms forum. My face is red. I'm just blushing with embarrassment.

It's guys like you two who make forums like this a real pleasure to visit.

Thank you.
Please try and understand that there is so much disinformation, misinformation, and outright fiction posted to forums like this and others, that whenever somebody posts something without sources, many of us are leery about it.

I'm in academia, and we always require our students to cite sources when they write papers. It's not an unreasonable request, but maybe it would be better phrased as "sources please."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 · (Edited)
Please try and understand that there is so much disinformation, misinformation, and outright fiction posted to forums like this and others, that whenever somebody posts something without sources, many of us are leery about it.

I'm in academia, and we always require our students to cite sources when they write papers. It's not an unreasonable request, but maybe it would be better phrased as "sources please."
I was not writing a paper. I was merely asking a question which I think I framed rather cogently.

I don't come here to be "graded" by other members.

I come here seeking knowledge and, if the occasion arises, to impart some too.

I have 60 posts here in 12 years. It's not like I'm sucking up an inordinate amount of bandwidth with silly questions.

I have read many posts here where someone will make an assertion without citing a source or sources.

I did understand the point you were making but, I will admit, it rankled me some when YOT hopped on your bandwagon. I despise "pile-on" types. I really do.

I'll spare you and YOT my opinion of YOT's purposeless "contribution" to this thread.

But YOT, allow me to compliment you on your avatar. Anyone who looks at your avatar is presented with the barrel of a loaded revolver pointed directly at their face.

Eres mucho homre, YOT.

Take care, y'all.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32,256 Posts
I can just tell you my experience with a judge with a 4" barrel at ten yards shooting 000 buck. The spread was about 6" max.

It is somewhat of an oval pattern, (Particularly if you are shooting #8 birdshot) which the birdshot really defines an oval pattern) and I attribute that to the rifling. I would think maybe a shorter barrel might not put as much spin on the load and might have a tighter pattern, but the length of a barrel from most shotguns has no effect on size of the pattern, and default to the choke openness or tightness to determine pattern size. I would think in this case, the choke diameter is approx .45 of an inch regardless of barrel length.

Velocity should be about the only thing changing with the barrel length which would have a slight effect in the revolution of spin.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,643 Posts
In my experience wit the Judge and the Governor, the buckshot is less accurate than 45 Colt. And shorter barrels have tighter patterns, but I don't know why. FWIW, the 45 ACP was not accurate at all in the Governor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,374 Posts
Sadly, most of the stuff you read about the Judge is by folks who have never so much as fired one let alone own one or have done any indepth testing with it, ergo much of it is based purely upon supposition/conjecture rather than fact.
Heck, most of the folks who actually do bother to test the Judge do so begrudgingly and end up doing a terrible job because their heart just isn't in it, so they rush through it by just testing one or two types of common ammo, then the rest of it is just a lot of words. In fact, that's a great way to spot poor testing or reviews on the Judge, if there is more talking than there is shooting, then it's inherently a poor test.

Anyway, the Judge has a wide variety of erroneous assumptions in regards to its performance which have unfortunately been accepted as fact in spite of the fact that they have by tested and disproven.

  • Longer Barrels = Less Accuracy because the rifling spins the shot!
    While it is true that the rifling can cause the shot to spread, but it can only spread so much and longer barrels would not increase the effect. Furthermore, the larger the shot you are using the less spread there will be, and 000 Buck is honestly what you should be using for self-defense anyway. Lastly, most ammo that is designed specifically for the Judge makes use of a shot cup or sabot to prevent the shot from ever coming into contact with the rifling, so it's a moot point if you use proper ammo.
  • The distance between the bullet and the barrel inside the cylinder reduces accuracy!
    This is a terrible argument which has long since been disproven by shooting Specials out of Magnum Revolvers, yet somehow it has made a comeback with the Judge and people like to pretend that it's more relevant because the cylinder space is longer out of the Judge. Once again it has been tested and disproved, but when you dislike something enough you'll cling to any anecdotal evidence to support your stance, so you get folks using bullets/loads which have terrible/inconsistent accuracy out of an SAA, M25, Redhawk or any other .45 caliber revolver on the market, testing such ammo out of a Judge then blaming it for said inaccuracy.
  • The length and dimensions of the cylinder cause gas blow-by which reduces the velocity of bullets!
    This one is my personal favorite since not only is it incorrect, but is actually the opposite of reality. ShootingtheBull410 tested this once and revealed that the exact opposite was true, that the cylinder length actually increases the velocity of bullets by functioning as barrel length.
  • The shallow rifling makes .45s less accurate out of the Judge!
    Here's another funny one because even folks who dislike the Judge like Paul Harrel have to admit that is false because it isn't even vaguely true. The reality of the situation is that most folks who tested out the accuracy of the Judge with .45LC did so with a 3" Barrel, then pitted it against other revolvers with 6" or longer Barrels, but if you actually test the Judge's accuracy alongside a revolver with a similar barrel length like 4" or use a 6.5" Judge, then it actually has similar accuracy, which also serves to disprove supposition listed above.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
193 Posts
Sadly, most of the stuff you read about the Judge is by folks who have never so much as fired one let alone own one or have done any indepth testing with it, ergo much of it is based purely upon supposition/conjecture rather than fact.
Heck, most of the folks who actually do bother to test the Judge do so begrudgingly and end up doing a terrible job because their heart just isn't in it, so they rush through it by just testing one or two types of common ammo, then the rest of it is just a lot of words. In fact, that's a great way to spot poor testing or reviews on the Judge, if there is more talking than there is shooting, then it's inherently a poor test.

Anyway, the Judge has a wide variety of erroneous assumptions in regards to its performance which have unfortunately been accepted as fact in spite of the fact that they have by tested and disproven.

  • Longer Barrels = Less Accuracy because the rifling spins the shot!
    While it is true that the rifling can cause the shot to spread, but it can only spread so much and longer barrels would not increase the effect. Furthermore, the larger the shot you are using the less spread there will be, and 000 Buck is honestly what you should be using for self-defense anyway. Lastly, most ammo that is designed specifically for the Judge makes use of a shot cup or sabot to prevent the shot from ever coming into contact with the rifling, so it's a moot point if you use proper ammo.
  • The distance between the bullet and the barrel inside the cylinder reduces accuracy!
    This is a terrible argument which has long since been disproven by shooting Specials out of Magnum Revolvers, yet somehow it has made a comeback with the Judge and people like to pretend that it's more relevant because the cylinder space is longer out of the Judge. Once again it has been tested and disproved, but when you dislike something enough you'll cling to any anecdotal evidence to support your stance, so you get folks using bullets/loads which have terrible/inconsistent accuracy out of an SAA, M25, Redhawk or any other .45 caliber revolver on the market, testing such ammo out of a Judge then blaming it for said inaccuracy.
  • The length and dimensions of the cylinder cause gas blow-by which reduces the velocity of bullets!
    This one is my personal favorite since not only is it incorrect, but is actually the opposite of reality. ShootingtheBull410 tested this once and revealed that the exact opposite was true, that the cylinder length actually increases the velocity of bullets by functioning as barrel length.
  • The shallow rifling makes .45s less accurate out of the Judge!
    Here's another funny one because even folks who dislike the Judge like Paul Harrel have to admit that is false because it isn't even vaguely true. The reality of the situation is that most folks who tested out the accuracy of the Judge with .45LC did so with a 3" Barrel, then pitted it against other revolvers with 6" or longer Barrels, but if you actually test the Judge's accuracy alongside a revolver with a similar barrel length like 4" or use a 6.5" Judge, then it actually has similar accuracy, which also serves to disprove supposition listed above.
Well stated with lots of facts. My testing is pretty simple. I load my Public Defender with five rounds of Federal 410 Handgun 000 and shoot it at a B-27 target 7 yards away. Everything is eight ring or better. The same goes for Hornady Critical Defense. I don't care if it chronos at 825, 837.5, or whatever. Five squeezes equals 15 to 20 lethal hits. That's good enough for me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
540 Posts
I can't answer your question directly only with what I have found with my 3" barrel, .25" cylinder Judges. Both are accurate at self defense distances with 000 Buckshot but open up radically after that. Both are also very accurate with .45 Long Colt ammunition as long as you pay attention to your fundamentals. If your concern is missed shots going through a wall in a self defense situation, you will be fine. Most encounters are quite close and well within the capabilities of what the Judge was designed for.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
74 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Well stated with lots of facts. My testing is pretty simple. I load my Public Defender with five rounds of Federal 410 Handgun 000 and shoot it at a B-27 target 7 yards away. Everything is eight ring or better. The same goes for Hornady Critical Defense. I don't care if it chronos at 825, 837.5, or whatever. Five squeezes equals 15 to 20 lethal hits. That's good enough for me.
andy,

You neglected to ask the gentleman for his sources. :)
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top