[BoneDigger]

This is basically a "what if" situation, and I will concede that these very rarly go anywhere, but I wanted to get some input. For those of you that carry concealed, what would you do in the following situation?

Lets say that you have just purchased gas and want to get a cold drink from inside the gas station. As you are getting your cold drink (lets say it's late, maybe 10 pm or so), a guy comes in, pulls a gun and tells the attendant to give him the money from the register. What would you do? Assume the guy is a real THREAT and try to protect the cashier? Assume he/she only wants the money and will leave as soon as they have it? Make no assumptions and cover your own butt.

Todd

 

[propellerhead]

I don't think this would be a defense of property issue. I think it would come down to being able to convince the jury that shooting the bad guy was immediately necessary to save the cashier's life. Was the bad guy's weapon pointed at the cashier at the time you shot him? Tough call. I would be more inclined to take a shot if the bad guy points the gun in my direction.

 

[Steelheart]

Part of this depends on where in the store you are located when the criminal starts his/her attempt.

If I was by the coolers (as I don't drink pop its more likely)...
Fade to the rear part of the store. Watch/listen to see if this is just a robbery (where I'd do nothing but be a good witness) or is going to turn into a murder (where I'd intervene, likely with a 115 +P JHP). Regardless, if my well-being is threatened the criminal will be having their feeling hurt...
While you're in the back of the store, a 911 call would be good IF you think you can do it safely!

Now, if I was up near the front of the store, the criminal isn't very bright as I think they tend to want fewer people around to see them and likely would wait until either I left or their nerve broke. At that point, too much depends on my read of their demeanor, any shakes/twitches etc. Plus, for me, is it a real gun (service pistol/revolver etc) or a little pop-gun (22 or 25)? With the pop-gun I'm more likely to let it play out. Yes, the small calibers can kill but I have much better odds.

One more reason to use pay-at-the-pump! And there's been some punk robbing gas stations in the towns around where I work so this isn't just theoretical. Oh, 10pm isn't that late at night. Now, 3 or 4am, thats getting late. ;D

Steelheart

 

[Qwiks draw]

Then there are the type who give no clear warning and would kill just because they can. Psycopaths or sociopaths may not give off signals. Around here signs are not given. The perps shoot first most of the time.

Not taking that chance. There is a moral factor in play here. Preserving someone's life or lives is called for. Stopping the criminal now is the goal. Trying to decide what is going to happen needs to be done to a certain degree. If you get behind on the power curve the amount time is not on your side. Action beats reaction everytime. Bad guy makes the first move.


I'd be taking the shot if I could in all clear conscience. Criminal intent can be hard to ascertain.

The criminal put himself and everyone else in this situation.

Mas Ayoob has an article in American Handgunner in the new issue. He points out that 48% of the police killed in the line of active duty died when they needed to shoot. Civilians can be in the same boat under the same circumstances.

The scenario described above by BoneDigger was one of those of which Mas was writing about.

These all are case by case basis, so there is room to just let things happen. Then again you may have no choice but to pull the trigger.

If the perp or perps are acting violent or out of control I know what I will do. Shoot. This is to stop and not kill. If the criminal dies it is the criminal's fault for letting things get that far. Hope it never gets to that stage.

 

[Smokewagon]

Unless the piece of manure gets violent, let him do his thing and get out. Taking his life is a last resort. Even if he is a piece of crap. Number one is paramount.

 

[Rabid_Dog]

Some states may be more liberal about CCW holders defending others or their property. New York most likely will frown on me protecting the local gas station's cash draw.

I was told a NY CCW holder should not think of themselves as a freelance LEO. But, if the perp (or anyone) points a gun at me or makes a definite statement like "gimme the money or you all die!" or "gimme the money or I start shootin'!", well that's different to me, game on. My life as well as the lives of everyone around me is a risk. As it was said earlier I would try to move back, get shelves between me and the perp or fade back a bit for the element of surprise.

Desperate people do desperate things and druggies and crack-heads are doing most of the grab-n-go robberies around here and they are about the most desperate people I have ever seen.

 

[Rabid_Dog]

Let me clarify... if the perp just wants the money and will then walk away, I'd just let them walk. I agree with Smokewagon above me here, no need to engage if the perp was not going to get violent in the first place.

 

[Qwiks draw]

I agree with letting the guy walk away and let the LEOs take care of things. Problem is around here is the criminals act like their walking away and then spin and shoot almost to quick to follow. Or if they get outside the building they shoot someone on the way to the getaway car. That's why I stated what I did.

I'd rather not get into a gunfight if it can be helped. Gangs are vicious to the exteme here and drive by shoot or randomly murder people for kicks. Even if in condition orange or yellow there have been many cases where that wasn't enough of a warning.

Of course this state does not have CCW rights. Targets of crime cannot shoot back under most circumstances.

 

[gunfighter48]

When the bad guy produced a gun your life is being threatened, period. That said, I would wait until I thought he was either going to shoot the clerk or aimed his pistol my way. Then I would take direct action, 2 COM immediately more if needed. As already stated they don't want any witnesses anymore; so your chances are not good that they will walk away without shooting. In Washington state you have to fear for your life, or of someone else's life, or of grave bodily injury to use lethal force. Someone points a gun at me, I'm in fear of my life!!!

 

[frostyeyes]

I have been robbed 5 times and shot twice ( non life threatning ) and if I have a clean shot I'm going for it, both times I was shot during robery's the BG gave NO indication he was gonna shoot, the next time I will not give him that chance both injury's were somewhat painfull but the last one was embarassing ( left a$$ cheek ) and the 2 detectives interviewed me while I was on the gurney getting stiched up, a nurse/ a woman Dr. and 1 woman detective and me with pants around the ankles. 2 of the robbery's I was armed and did not have a chance for a shot so I didnt draw till BG was out the door.

 

[MakeMyDay]

If possible, exit the store. I ain't nobody's hero. Otherwise, try to fade back and draw.

If the BG starts shooting and I can't exit the place, now he's putting my safety in danger. I'll be looking for a good shot to take him out.

But in order to drop the hammer, my life, or the life safety of someone close to me has to be in imminent danger with no other way out of the situation. This rule helps protect me from the other thing just as dangerous to my well-being as a guy with a gun: Plaintiff's Attorney.

Sorry to sound callous, but I'm not likely to use my weapon to protect a convenience store clerk. And the store's assets are protected by insurance. If you pull the trigger, you run a great risk of putting your sorry a$$ in the hands of liberal antis who will take away your home and ruin your life because you were trying to be a hero.

 

[MakeMyDay]

To further clarify my philosophy, just examine what the media and other liberals do to police officers who shoot a BG. They're guilty, guilty, guilty before the body's cold.

 

[Steelheart]

MakeMyDay, I don't think you're being callous. Thats one of things that is screwed up with our society. Wish it wasn't like that but I don't know how we can change it.

Steelheart

 

[NYPD]

To further clarify my philosophy, just examine what the media and other liberals do to police officers who shoot a BG. They're guilty, guilty, guilty before the body's cold.

I don't think this would be a defense of property issue. I think it would come down to being able to convince the jury that shooting the bad guy was immediately necessary to save the cashier's life. Was the bad guy's weapon pointed at the cashier at the time you shot him? Tough call. I would be more inclined to take a shot if the bad guy points the gun in my direction.

It's hard enough for a Police Officer to justify their actions in a situation such as the one stated. Now multiply that by 100 for a civilian taking action. Here is the difference: If you are a police officer (on or off duty) and your order the perp to drop his weapon and he does not or turns and points it toward you....BANG! It's a lot more complicated for armed civilians in this situation. Current laws are more tied to self-preservation or the defense of a family member in imminent danger. Might be a tough sell to some jurors.

As for myself (being a retired LEO) on instinct I would discreetly draw my weapon and firmly order said perp to drop it. If he didn't...well, I think you know what would happen next. :shooter:

 

[frostyeyes]

Thank God for stand your ground laws being passed all over the U.S. now, glad we have one in Mi.

 

[captainamerica]

Now it's time for states to get serious against armed robbery and shots fired. We need a return of the swift and severe justice of yesteryear.

Thank God for stand your ground laws being passed all over the U.S. now, glad we have one in Mi.

 

[Smokewagon]

Yeah, but it's never gonna happen. Those days are gone... :'(

 

[Rotorhead]

As soon as I read the question, I thought of two recent events in my area. First was in Kansas this past winter (Jan I believe). This very situation played out, night, convenience store, clerk and sheepdog. BG enters points gun at clerk, sheepdog BITES. Result, dead BG, grateful clerk, almost hero status for sheepdog (form Oklahoma it turns out), and not even the consideration of charges by the DA. Basis, clerks life WAS THREATENED and really so was the sheepdog. The mear act of pulling a gun and waving it at someone in a threatening manner is assault with a deadly weapon. Case two this summer on the Missouri side. Store clerk found dead by an early am regular customer at an all night gas station/store. Guess BG didn't want a witness.
My answer, if possible, I'm taking the shot. Hands down. You cannot read the BGs mind that he is just gonna leave with the $$. Even if he says so. He may want to eliminate the witnesses, maybe gang initiation to rob AND kill, maybe???

 

[JimL]

Thank God for stand your ground laws being passed all over the U.S. now, glad we have one in Mi.

I don't understand the motive for these changes. Legislators aren't noted for making laws for logical reasons, so what else would make them write up something sensible like not demanding that you turn all your advantages over to a crook by turning your back and running?

Thanks a million

JimL

 

[primemover]

In Louisiana it's ok to use your weapon to protect yourself or someone else from a threat as you describe here.
You cannot use deadly force to protect property but you can pull a gun on someone stealing to threaten them. Say like if you go outside at night and you see someone trying to break your shed door open.

Secondly you guys are saying , 'what if his intent is not to use the weapon and just to steal the money and leave" My question to you is, how the F*k can you know such a thing? Are you gunna take his word for it? please. If his gun is out and pointing to someone and I have a clear safe shot, that MF'er is going down.