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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Friends,

Please give me some input on what I missed and what I should consider based on your experiences.

Last week my wife and I range qualified for the CCW in our state.

First: Some observations.
1. The course instructor required .45 Colt rather than .410 in order to count hits and misses, as it is difficult to count pellets from a .410. The standards require 70% hits in on the target, so it made a lot of sense to use the .45 Colt.
2. The course instructions emphasize the civil liability of the CCW carrier in a state without a “Castle Doctrine” law.
3. We qualified at 1, 2, 3, 5, and 7 meters.
4. Course instructions suggest warning shouts, not “shots,” at 5 and 7 meters with handguns held at low ready after drawing. This gives both visual and verbal warning to the attacker.
5. After the course concluded, the course instructor went through several boxes of .410 at various distances on the range, with both single and multiple targets, comparing the .410 with various handgun calibers.

Second: Carrying The Judge as a CCW handgun.
1. My wife cannot conceal either the 3-inch barrel of the stainless steel model or the 4-inch barrel of the ultra light in a strong side carry. She is too short and the revolvers are too long.
2. She carries either revolver in an external holster, The Safepacker™, from the Wilderness Tactical Products, LLC. This gives both excellent access and complete concealment. See http://www.thewilderness.com/
3. She clips her car keys to the outside of the holster and places the holster in a gun locker provided at work.

Third: The limitations of The Judge as a personal protection handgun.
1. The grip, trigger pull, and the trigger itself presented significant challenges to accurate and rapid shooting.
2. The grip puts my middle finger knuckle against the trigger guard. The stainless steel nips and the ultra light bites. I followed the advice of SgtKnuckles, in this forum, on 19 April, in regard to grip modification. See http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/index.php?topic=6453.0
3. I found the factory trigger pull heavy and slightly rough.
4. The side of the trigger cut into my finger.
5. Cylinder & Slide in Fremont, Nebraska, put in Wolff springs and smoothed both the action and the trigger. The trigger pull now equals the best of my S&W revolvers. See http://www.cylinder-slide.com/
6. My wife and I can now fire the revolver quickly and accurately.

Fourth: The decrease in potential civil liability of The Judge as a CCW handgun.
1. I had first used .410 with #4 shot in the first two chambers, followed by .45 Colt in the last three. At 3 meters this gave a pattern about a meter in diameter for the .410 with a group of 5 cm/2 inches for the .45 Colt.
2. Based on comparison of the .45 Colt and the .410 at several distances AND the civil liabilities that will result from shooting an attacker, I now intend to load .410 shells in each chamber.
3. At the 7 meter mark/23 feet, a low ready stance and a verbal warning, followed by a shot aimed at the belt level, gives reasonable verbal and visual warning and avoids pellets to the face. I suspect each revolver has unique patterning, so what works for my revolvers may not work for all revolvers.
4. The combination of verbal and visual warning, and a shot to the legs and lower abdomen should deter anyone but a person intent on killing.
5. As the attacker closes the distance on a .410, he or she increases his or her risk of death. We do not increase the risk; the attacker does!
6. When we load with .45 Colt or a combination of .410 and .45 Colt, as soon as we shoot with the .45 Colt, we take responsibility for increasing the risk of death to the attacker.
7. Depending on our choice of .410 load, we can also take responsibility for increasing the risk to the attacker, increasing our own liability.
8. The course data suggested a person could close the distance from 7 meters in about 2 seconds.
9. My wife had no problem delivering 3 shots in 2 seconds.
10. At 1 meter, the .410 seems to me to deliver about twice the power of a .38 Special. I do not know the fall-off of this power, but it has substantial power at 1 meter.
11. She now carries .410 shells in each chamber instead of a mix of .410 and .45 Colt.

Five: These conclusions come from my current experience.
We will modify these steps based on further experience and advice from those with more experience.
I do dumb with the best.
What have I missed?
What should I consider next?

Thank you for your input.

Q
 

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My JUDGE is not a carry gun, for CC. It is strickly for HD, and walking around the farm, or on the tractor, for varmints. The short barrel, I wish I had bought only because of hanging up getting on an off tractors.

You reached some good conclusions about it, I keep shot shells in it on the farm, due to houses close by that might take a 45 colt thru the windows as a bad thing.

As to the Finger behind the trigger guard, I bought the Hogue grip that fills that space, and can shoot all day with no sore fingers. That was my solution compared to Sarge!. I have not had a problem with trigger pull, but most of mine has been slow fire, or SA. If I do my part, it makes one large hole, with 45, 200 to 255gr loads.

I did try putting it in a pocket of a large pair of cargo's and it actually hides pretty good if I have a vest on, or long shirt. But I usually just carry it in a belt holster cross draw.
 

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Well,

I hope you enjoy the gun. Just a thought, you should always shoot to stop the attack, which is how you stated, however, I am not going to aim at the abdomen, I take a 2 tap and 1 tap shot. 2 to center mass (chest) one to the head.

Moral: Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Also, this leaves no one to file a civil suit against you, especially since there is no castle doctrine.
 

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mp3mogul said:
Moral: Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Also, this leaves no one to file a civil suit against you, especially since there is no castle doctrine.
If the deceased perp has any family, they can also file a civil suit if the State in question does not have a Castle Doctrine.
 

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At very close range the .410 will kill--but I think you may be at a disadvantage should the bad guy take cover or ends up farther away from you while still engaging you. The Judge is an outstanding gun to use against a carjacker-at that range. I suppose the first round up would be ok to use a shotshell but the other 4 need to be a .45LC round. I agree with NYPD-it doesn't matter if he lives or dies-expect a lawsuit from his family even if you were in the right--and if you just wound him with shotshell bb's in the eyes and blinds him you CAN REALLY expect a lawsuit for that.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Friends,
These seem like good reasons to have .45 Colt in at least two chambers.
My wife carries the revolver when she leaves the hospital late at night.
I worry that the attack will come from close range, that is under 21 feet, and escalate quickly.
I expect she is a prime target for a civil law suit whatever wounds the attacker suffers.
I look for reasonable self protection while shifting the responsibility for increasing risk of serious injury or death to the attacker.
I am sure that I have not thought this through carefully enough.
Thank you all for your input.
Q
 

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When you whip out that Judge, wait til he turns to run, then shoot him in the ass with 410 shot. If you're gonna be sued, at least you can laugh during your recollection of how you stopped the crime.....and gave him a fresh set of freckles......

NOTE - I'm just kidding
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Friends,

I have twice had to defend myself with a revolver, a S&W .41 Magnum.

First, as two persons headed towards me and my daughter at 1:30 AM at a motel off of I-80.

Second, as four persons in a big sedan drove me off the road in the city.

Each time my response caused their retreat.

The first time, the two men stopped suddenly, spun around, and then ran around the corner of the building.

The second time, the driver of the car took one look at the revolver and left ten feet of rubber getting away.

In each case, if I had fired and hit, I would have caused serious wounds, perhaps not to the front of the attacker.

This is not the sort of thing one wants to explain to a jury. I would much rather explain pellets in the ass.
I now carry a lightweight Judge.

Q
 

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hmmm....yes, explaining how the perp got shot in the back is dicey at best. I'm not sure how practical a 410 shot #9 or #6 would be at 25 feet though. Thats a tough call.

What do you mean 'lightweight'? Do you mean a short barrel?
 

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I have shot targets at 30 feet, you will definitely give him a new set of freckles. But If it was me, I would use at least #4 shot. I would expect to put them in a world of hurt out to about 21 feet, but more than a sting and slight penetration further than that is not good. Up close and personal, the pattern will put a world of hurt on those in front of it.
 

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You know, Winchester does offer a .410 000 buckshot loading that has 5 pellets that is going out at 1135fps in a 3" chamber and a 3 pellet 2 1/2" chamber load at 1300fps--either of these would be superior to any birdshot load-you still get multiple strikes from a single round but with a larger pellet for deeper penetration than birdshot.
 

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Unloading is the problem I have with the spent .410 shells. Even when the gun was new and unused the base of the shell was so tight I had to use an empty .45 shell like a thimble to force out the .410s using the ejector. Such a slow reload could be a life altering problem since we only have 5 shots to start with. Different brands of .410 shells may eject better so recommendations are welcomed — I used Rio.

#7½ shot at 15' put about 70 pellets into the target's head and with a torso shot only 7 pellets missed completely. I have bought #4 and #000 shot but haven't tried them at the range.

I find The Judge Ultralite to be much more accurate on the longer shots with the hammer cocked. For up close shooting the heavy double action pull is manageable enough but I'm no lightweight.
 

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edglaze said:
Different brands of .410 shells may eject better so recommendations are welcomed — I used Rio.
Winchester...Winchester...and Winchester. Easy in and easy out with the smooth hull.
 

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I strongly disagree with carrying a personal defense weapon loaded to wound.

This is a lawsuit (at best) and your/other innocent persons death/injury (at worst) waiting to happen.


If you draw your weapon in self defense, you have already come to the conclusion that a life is in danger.

If the dangerous person does not respond to simple commands to stop or instead retreats (iow, ceases being a threat to life), you are not doing anyone any favors by "wounding" him/her.

If you draw your sidearm to defend yourself, you must be prepared to ultimately stop the threat. Crackheads will most likely not even feel the peppering of a .410 shot load.
 

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I saw a Remington 410 slug today at Bass Pro - cool load, but I'm wondering if you might as well shoot them with a 45 Colt instead. Anybody have the ballistics to compare the two? Part of me says that the 410 slug might outperform, but then again the 45 can be loaded pretty hot, and Corbon has a real hot 45 Colt load as well.
 

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.410 slugs are horrible performers through the Judge....the barrel is .45 and the slugs are .41 in diameter. What you get is a 90-95 grain piece of lead literally tumbling out of the barrel. The 45 Colt or "000" buckshot are the only two true defensive options out of the Judge in my opinion. (But it sure is fun busting clays with #4 shot ;D)
 

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I hadn't considered that....thanks for the heads up on that. I'm thinking of buying a 410 shotty for my son this Christmas, I'm sure it'll do better out of that..... ;)
 

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texastaurusguy said:
I hadn't considered that....thanks for the heads up on that. I'm thinking of buying a 410 shotty for my son this Christmas, I'm sure it'll do better out of that..... ;)
I have a bolt action 410 shotty, so I can fire the 3" or 2.5" thru it. We have never used a slug in any of them, all sizes of shot but not slugs. It was and probably still is the main food gathering gun in my house, if needed.

But the Judge is so much easier to carry when your out and about. Car seat, walking in the woods, or such as that. Mine is the largest variety of JUDGE, over 13.5" long, so concealing is a little tough. I just love the fact that at gun shows the dealers say, they sell them out as fast as they get them in here.
 
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