Taurus Firearm Forum banner
1 - 20 of 24 Posts

· Registered
Joined
·
38 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey folks, reloading 38spl with small rifle primers, 5.1gn Longshot and 157gn Badman cast lead. What's the Min OAL? I have been going with 1.480 in. I have found info for OAL on lots of powders and bullet combos but not for what I am loading. So I went with the 1.48 in. just because it was the the longest Min OAL that was close to what my loads are on the Lee pistol die set chart. Good / Bad ? What should it be? I have the Lee Modern Reloading Manual on order. So I hope to hear a "your OK with that" reply.

Thanks Folks
 

· Registered
Joined
·
3,762 Posts
What are you shooting them in and why rifle primers? If we had that information maybe we could make more definitive suggestions.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
17,743 Posts
I assume you're using rifle primers because that's all you can find. What kind of gun are you shooting these in? That's a slow powder for .38 spl, not a lot of data, and would seem to best suited +P loads from what I do find. If you're shooting these in a .357 I think I'd be OK with it. All in all I'm not wild about the plan.

Where did you find that load?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
38,457 Posts
Where did you find that load?
very, very good question!
normally published loads come with specifics on powder types, weights, type of projectiles and OAL.--:icon_rolleyes:
 

· Registered
Joined
·
38 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I guess what gun I use would help, sorry. Rossi92 38spl/.357, 20" barrel. And I just started to reload, matter of fact I started Friday. Small rifle primers is all I have for now. Some day the small pistol primers and Hodgdon International Clays I ordered will arrive. My bad on the lack of info folks.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
703 Posts
If I were just starting out, I don't think I would try experimenting with unpublished loads. I'd suggest you wait for Lee's book to arrive and read it prior to jumping into this new hobby. I'd also recommend that you get load data from that book, from some other manual, or from manufacturer's websites.

Edit: I tried to find you a load from Hodgdon's website, but it's not listed at all for this caliber. Perhaps that powder can be made to work, but as a new reloader, you might want to wait a little before taking on that challenge.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
38,457 Posts
Edit: I tried to find you a load from Hodgdon's website, but it's not listed at all for this caliber. Perhaps that powder can be made to work, but as a new reloader, you might want to wait a little before taking on that challenge.
yep! thats what i was going to suggest, check the powder manufactures website, if that powder isn't listed its not a good indication of proper use.
you could contact them by phone and explain that you are using it in a rifle and perhaps that would change things on its use.
they likely have loads that they tested other than whats listed on the website, but may still say its not advised to use that loading in that combination.
could be many reasons for that, not good accuracy, not good pressure (FPS), spikes in pressure, to fast/to slow burn rate, extremely dirty in that density, etc.
 
  • Like
Reactions: jtg452 and BBGun

· Registered
Joined
·
542 Posts
I note that Hodgdon does list loads using Longshot for .357 magnum, but they are all for jacketed bullets and yield magnum pressures. I don't know how Longshot reacts to lower charges than recommended. I know the shortages are making us look for alternatives, but...
 

· Registered
Joined
·
1,831 Posts
Welcome to the fun and cost saving world of reloading.
The problem I see is that you may be guessing at loads and boolit weights with a hopeful outcome. Please don't do that. I would hate to hear later that your weapon was damaged or God forbid you were injured because you didn't have the information you needed.
PLEASE, wait til you have some printed information to follow and don't deviate from that.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
520 Posts
Welcome to the fun and cost saving world of reloading.
The problem I see is that you may be guessing at loads and boolit weights with a hopeful outcome. Please don't do that. I would hate to hear later that your weapon was damaged or God forbid you were injured because you didn't have the information you needed.
PLEASE, wait til you have some printed information to follow and don't deviate from that.
I agree, for now, untill you get a few thousand rounds under your belt ;), it's strongly suggested to use published load data.

As for OAL of revolver rounds; crimp in the crimp groove/cannalure and disregard OAL data...
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
17,743 Posts
I found some loads with Longshot.......... .38+P..... 5.5 gr with a 158 gr Hornady XTP......5.3 with a 170gr Sierra JHC. I think your load is probably OK, considering it's a lead bullet, and OK in a strong gun. But I'd back off well below 5.0 to start. Just to be sure. Then work your way up.
 

· Registered
Joined
·
38 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thank you all for the very sound advice. Text book loads are best for a green horn like my self.
Blunder #2, I got 4 lbs of International Clays. I saw the name Clays and thought hey what luck. Hodgdon doesn't list data for 38spl. The jug says made in Australia, ADI makes it for Hodgdon and it's called AS50N.

The S is for shot gun, they also make AP50N and the P is for pistol.

The ADI web site says AP50N is an effective intermediate bulk density medium/fast burning rate handgun powder very suitable for medium target loads in .38 special. It has proven its usefulness in equipment such as 'Ammo' Load for the automated reloading of ammunition for police and paramilitary applications in this caliber. Its burning rate, bulk density and clean burning properties are similar to those of AS50N shotgun powder but it has superior metering characteristics for small charge weights.

So the pistol powder is finer and meters better but is about the same thing right?

The web site has a Powder Equivalents chart.
AP50N
HP 38
e3​
PB​
W231​


AS50N
International​
Green Dot​
700X​
WST
My Modern Reloading 2ed list IMR 700X powder for 38 special in several different bullet types and weights.
Can I use this information to safely load 38spl rounds with International Clays?
The people who manufacture the powder lists equivalents for me to cross reference load data. Understanding a test with several cycles of my Lee perfect powder measure and weighing each to get an average.
Anyone here use International Clays for pistol loads?
 

· Registered
Joined
·
703 Posts
Thank you all for the very sound advice. Text book loads are best for a green horn like my self.
Blunder #2, I got 4 lbs of International Clays. I saw the name Clays and thought hey what luck. Hodgdon doesn't list data for 38spl. The jug says made in Australia, ADI makes it for Hodgdon and it's called AS50N.

The S is for shot gun, they also make AP50N and the P is for pistol.

The ADI web site says AP50N is an effective intermediate bulk density medium/fast burning rate handgun powder very suitable for medium target loads in .38 special. It has proven its usefulness in equipment such as 'Ammo' Load for the automated reloading of ammunition for police and paramilitary applications in this caliber. Its burning rate, bulk density and clean burning properties are similar to those of AS50N shotgun powder but it has superior metering characteristics for small charge weights.

So the pistol powder is finer and meters better but is about the same thing right?

The web site has a Powder Equivalents chart.
AP50N
HP 38
e3​
PB​
W231​

AS50N
International​
Green Dot​
700X​
WST
My Modern Reloading 2ed list IMR 700X powder for 38 special in several different bullet types and weights.
Can I use this information to safely load 38spl rounds with International Clays?
The people who manufacture the powder lists equivalents for me to cross reference load data. Understanding a test with several cycles of my Lee perfect powder measure and weighing each to get an average.
Anyone here use International Clays for pistol loads?

I'm glad your book's arrived. Please read it thoroughly.

I know it's confusing, but the following powders are different from each other: Clays, International Clays, and Universal Clays.

LOAD DATA IS NOT INTERCHANGEABLE!* Please do not try to load Clays using 700X loads. With regard to powder equivalents. I believe they refer to burn rates: dense, fast burning powders for lighter loads and slow, bulky, slow-burning powders for heavy loads. You can see a chart here http://www.lapua.com/upload/reloading/reloadingburningratechart2011.pdf.




* There are (I recall) two powders are marketed under two different names each, and they are (naturally) exactly interchangeable. That should not take away from the message.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
17,743 Posts
The disclaimer from that website:

"These tables are only approximate, showing equivalent values within about 5%. Actual burning rates can vary depending on the calibre, weapon, loading components and practices, as well as from powder lot to powder lot. As a consequence it must be understood that Australian Munitions cannot accept any responsibility for the use of this information in any way."

"Many of the most popular powders sold under the Hodgdon brand in the USA (including Varget and H4350) are made by ADI Ltd. in Australia. Some load manuals list ADI data, but not Hodgdon data, or vice-versa, so we’ve compiled this list of equivalent powders. If you can’t find a recommended load for a particular Hodgdon powder in your caliber, download the latest ADI Smokeless Powders Handloaders Guide, a 2.8 megabyte Acrobat file."

AS30N=Clays
AP50N = (No Hodgdon)
AS50N = International
AP70N = Universal
AP100 = (No Hodgdon)
AR2205 = H4227
AR2207 = H4198
AR2219 = H322
Bench Mark1 = (No Hodgdon)
Bench Mark2 = BenchMark AR2206 = (No Hodgdon)
AR2206H = H4895
AR2208 = Varget
AR2209 = H4350
AR2213 = (Discontinued)
AR2213SC = H4831
AR2217 = H1000
AR2225 = Retumbo
AR2218 = H50BMG

you also might find this useful: http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html

I think you'll find some lead bullet Clays data here: http://www.reloadammo.com/38loads.htm

and

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...&Weight=158&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

looks like 2.8 min -3.1 max

I'll point out that there's only .3 spread between those two. Now, remember that disclaimer above about "...within about 5%". Sounds close, but in pistol loads with small charge weights, and narrow spreads, that's not much room for error.

I've done a fair amount of reloading the .38 spl with loads that aren't listed. But I usually test them in a S&W 586 .357 Magnum which will take about any reasonable thing you can dish out in a .38 spl. To be honest with you, there's not much point to it. If a powder isn't listed there's usually a damn good reason why. Most shot O.K., but why go through all that for mediocre loads when there's so many better ones that have been known forever.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
17,743 Posts
He has International Clays, not regular Clays.
Damn, combine ADI and Hodgdon's and it's confusing as hell, you're right.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
17,743 Posts
I can't find anything on International Clays in pistol cartridges except a whole bunch of forum posts saying Hodgdon warns against it's use. Can't actually find that on Hodgdon's site though.

Maybe you could find some skeet shooters to sell it to......
 

· Registered
Joined
·
703 Posts
He can call Hodgdon to find out, I suppose.

But Jeepjunk94, I sincerely suggest you start off easy and find a powder, any powder, that has a known load in .38 Special, and start with that before anything else. I've used HP38 (=Win-231), and it works well. I've tested Bullseye too, and it's popular for this application. I've not used Trailboss, but it's supposed to work well for cartridges originally designed for black powder, as .38 Special is. It's supposed to be impossible to overcharge, so long as you don't crush the grains. There are many other powders that are suitable too, but please find something that's got a known load from a reputable source ( = manufacturer, published book).
 

· Registered
Joined
·
38,457 Posts
For a newbie getting into reloading there are some older, improved , good, wide loading data powders such as Hp-38, Win 231, Bullseye, Unique that within reason can be used for most any pistol loads and safe loading data is everywhere.
the problem is that they are generally pretty fast powders and so the reloader needs to provide a good checks and measures way of loading them safely.(IE: double charges).
Theres a reason that Unique is named Unique!
I think it can be used for virtually any psitol caliber out there, may not yield the best ballistics but it can be safely used.
 

· Premium Member
Joined
·
17,743 Posts
For the record, I use W231 ( HP38 ) and Hodgdon Universal Clays.

By the way, this is one case where you can swap data: HP38 and W231 are now interchangeble. The manufacturer states they are the same. They were always very close and when Hodgdon acquired the rights to Winchester's powder line they killed off one to get rid of the duplication. It's now the same powder in two different packages. Just in case you're not confused enough.

"In March 2006, Hodgdon Powder Company and Winchester® Ammunition announced that Winchester® branded reloading powders would be licensed to Hodgdon. Winchester smokeless propellants, the choice of loading professionals, are available to the handloader to duplicate the factory performance of loads from handgun to rifle and shotgun.
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top