Taurus Firearm Forum banner

1 - 20 of 62 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
329 Posts
This comment caught my eye, from someone who says they are LE:

"First, a conealed carry permit makes it legal for a person to carry a weapon but does not necessarily qualify them. Some CCW classes are only eight hours and do not include the training some would think. Shooting at paper targets may help with confidence in the weapon but does not prepare a person for a situation like the campus shootings. This can be discussed in great detail by qualified instructors.Second, putting more people with guns in their hands during such a shooting can make it very complicated for responding police officers, me having been one. The training currently taking place for an active shooter scenario can become very complicated when well meaning untrained persons are pulling their weapons during such a tragic event. I dont’t rule out the possiblitly though of a properly trained person, with a legal permit, being able to stop a situation from either happening or becoming worse. Timothy DavisJohn Day, Oregon"

So, do what he says. In the minutes it takes the police to respond (and this particular shooting was over by then), just dodge the bullets and hope for the best. If you don't, the police might kill you when they finally arrive, thinking you are the shooter.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,931 Posts
high5apparatus said:
This comment caught my eye, from someone who says they are LE:

So, do what he says. In the minutes it takes the police to respond (and this particular shooting was over by then), just dodge the bullets and hope for the best. If you don't, the police might kill you when they finally arrive, thinking you are the shooter.
Ok, I can agree with the LEO, about it confusing the situation. However, I personally would not want to be the one with a gun, and ability to use it that let people die, so I could survive, or not get legally entangled over the shooting. There are things you can do after the shooting to make sure your not shoot by the arriving LE. I know the course I am taking, and the later follow up I plan to take give you insight as to how to handle it, and there have been earlier discussions on the subject here on this forum.

It is not a perfect world, and only the person in the situation can decide how they are going to handle it, at the beginning, in the heat of shooting, and after the fact.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,000 Posts
high5apparatus said:
So, do what he says. In the minutes it takes the police to respond (and this particular shooting was over by then), just dodge the bullets and hope for the best. If you don't, the police might kill you when they finally arrive, thinking you are the shooter.
i'll take my chances, i'd rather be shot in the chest then shot in the back.

if you're not point the gun at them or opening fire on people the police should always give you a chance to surrender before opening fire.

im not saying they always will because not even police are really trained for that stuff they're better prepared then the avg civilian but still not ready for it.

i'd say your best bet is to holster your gun (i'd say lay it down but you dont know if there are more shooters) and wait for the cops.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
First of all, it's my constitution right to "bear arms". The consequenses of mistakes with this is a different matter. However I have a legal and moral right to protect myself and family. If we give away that basic right we are giving away liberty! I wish the liberals in this country would wake up. They have no statistics nor laws to back-up their anti gun position. The facts show that where people have a right to bear arms crime is down. Hear of many shootings in Utah, how about D.C.?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
tough. hmmm. lets supposed ccw allowed carry on college campus, just for the sake of argument for now. we have two general reactions that i think are both admirable considering the situation and the training of the personal with the ccw. 1. crap your pants, duck, and run..hopefully getting out alive to see your family again, effectively protecting yourself and those who depend on you. 2. pursuing the gunman and taking his life or losing your own. in my opinion, neither of these responses are to be frowned at. (of course if you are highly trained things might change, depending on the appropriate course of action in a situation of 1 vs 1 or more and types of weapons involved..blah blah blah or being legally obligated to respond with authority like a cop or something) ok... me personally, if i walked up on a guy shooting on campus and he didnt see me, i would probably respond with my weapon. if i was in an auditorium and this guy walked in blasting, i would probably duck and run thinking of my wife and getting to her safely. if it were possible, and there wasnt a crowd of people between me and shooter..maybe..maybe i would attack. though, if you could only run out of the room, into another room and you dont have a good shot in the beginning of the attack, you probably are of better use to the group you end up with in the next room. if there is nowhere to run and you know it... :guns:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
694 Posts
One thing I think most people overlook when discussing guns on campus, or any other "gun free zone", is that it is the lack of people's ability to fight back that draws these nut jobs to open fire. If students had been permitted to be armed at Virginia Tech or NIU, do you think these guys would have gone there to shoot? Think about it. Armed citizens, even the chance that someone may be armed, is an obvious deterrent to this type of activity. You don't hear of mass shootings at gun shows, do you?
Just food for thought.
Dennis
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Dennis +1..almost. i am torn on this notion. people are dependent on things by nature (or we have been conditioned to be that way). in our society, a thing is introduced and the majority of people who do accept this thing begin to rely on it, training thier reason to make it a tool for use. if its a behavior, many people train thier reason to make it habitual. and the more people that accept it, the more people are willing to openely rely on it. i fear that if many people are carrying guns on a college campus then deadly force will become a more and more common response to decreasingly serious situations. a common argument at the cafeteria line, which before would result in embarrasment and maybe a fist fight, is now potentially a deadly situation. now, i dont have THE answer but im not sure that legalizing gun carrying on college campus is the right answer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Dennis2477 said:
One thing I think most people overlook when discussing guns on campus, or any other "gun free zone", is that it is the lack of people's ability to fight back that draws these nut jobs to open fire. If students had been permitted to be armed at Virginia Tech or NIU, do you think these guys would have gone there to shoot? Think about it. Armed citizens, even the chance that someone may be armed, is an obvious deterrent to this type of activity. You don't hear of mass shootings at gun shows, do you?
Just food for thought.
Dennis
That's a very good point. You don't hear people shooting up police stationsn either.

In response to the first post: to the LE guy: Training or not, if there's a way to stop some idiot from killing me and/or 30 freaking people, it'll be 3 in the chest and 1 in the head for that idiot. As for confusing cops: ???? Shoot the lunatic, then imedietly empty your weapon, w/ the slide back/clylinder open and lay on the ground and wait to be arrested, at which time you explain what happened. I don't think any right minded CCW holder would shoot the loonatic, and then proceed to run around flailing his arms in the air with a gun.

Gun Free Zones are a joke. It's sad. Stupid people need to chill the eff out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,000 Posts
dcicero said:
i am torn on this notion. people are dependent on things by nature (or we have been conditioned to be that way). in our society, a thing is introduced and the majority of people who do accept this thing begin to rely on it, training thier reason to make it a tool for use. if its a behavior, many people train thier reason to make it habitual. and the more people that accept it, the more people are willing to openely rely on it. i fear that if many people are carrying guns on a college campus then deadly force will become a more and more common response to decreasingly serious situations. a common argument at the cafeteria line, which before would result in embarrasment and maybe a fist fight, is now potentially a deadly situation. now, i dont have THE answer but im not sure that legalizing gun carrying on college campus is the right answer.
welcome to the logic of the anti's, this is exactly their argument that the more guns that are accessible the more likely to be violence and crime.

this is the logic of removing the guns from the situation saves lives.. only the situation is 24/7 meaning you can't own a gun.

i suggest any one who has passed a course and has a permit or license should beable to carry on campus.. a lot of the students simply wont qualify purely on age, and even the ones old enough to be CHL holders majority will not..

but like i've said it only takes 1 to stop the gun man.. and say you have 1 student armed in each room.. thats huge.

anyway im a big fan of open carry so i wish we would get back to the good old days when carrying a gun was no more a big deal then carrying a pocket watch, we never use to be this damn scared of guns wtf happen to society.

personally if i was in a place and someone just started killing people.. assuming im alone i think i'd have no choice but to try and stop them the gun is the great equalizer.. and i only need ot make one clean shot to stop them, i dont have to be bigger, stronger or faster to defeat the gunman.

if i ran like everyone else my conscious would never forgive me.. i think it would be more agony to think about all the people i might have been able to save then me having to shoot and probably kill 1 gunman.

now if i had family or friends with me my priority would of course be to get them out or protect them first and probably would run like everyone else unless already cornered..

very dicey questions.. but you carry for just such a situation like this.. the guns not just to protect you but those around you.. and i could not imagine leaving fellow human beings to be gun downed like dogs only to save my self.

im not jesus, im not a cop, im not a hero.. but if im gonna die let it be on my feet and not on my knees.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
"welcome to the logic of the anti's, this is exactly their argument that the more guns that are accessible the more likely to be violence and crime."

this is not the logic of the anti's for i am not an anti. your premise is not completely accurate.

also, my argument is not stating that current criminals would become more active, but that the average citizen would be more likely to rely on his weapon in a broader range of situations. this argument stems from some ideas from Hiedeggar, but are solely my own application. mass accepted behavior becomes habit and eventually is performed mainly without being filtered through reason. this is a form of existence that is practiced by a large amount of people.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
589 Posts
CCW holders are the most law abidding people in the country, it is an incorrect assumptions that if some one legally carries a gun that they are more likely to use it. It has been proven it every state that went Shall Issue CCW holders shooting it up doesn't happen. Do alittle research on CCW crime statistics in shall issue states like Florida. David
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
thanks david. history is def. a valid tool. and one can assume they would continue to be law abiding if it were legal to carry on college campus. but, is there any reason or history that may suggest otherwise. just to brainstorm. let us be objective.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,334 Posts
dcicero said:
the average citizen would be more likely to rely on his weapon in a broader range of situations . . . mass accepted behavior becomes habit and eventually is performed mainly without being filtered through reason.
Your statements come across like you believe people, even well intentioned law abiding people, are unable to control themselves. Therefore the government needs to put controls upon them for their own protection and the protection of society. Is that the essence of your statements?

Please forgive my analogy, but I feel it is valid. That's like saying because I own a camera I am more likely to use it for a broader range of subject matter that may be inappropriate, like shooting child pornography. Therefore, the government should restrict my use of a camera for my protection and the protection of children.

:???:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,000 Posts
dcicero said:
also, my argument is not stating that current criminals would become more active, but that the average citizen would be more likely to rely on his weapon in a broader range of situations.
i understood your argument perfectly, if people carry a gun they'll find an excuse to use it as a cruch.. this is part of the anti's argument as to why people should'nt have guns.

VegasGuy said:
Please forgive my analogy, but I feel it is valid. That's like saying because I own a camera I am more likely to use it for a broader range of subject matter that may be inappropriate, like shooting child pornography. Therefore, the government should restrict my use of a camera for my protection and the protection of children.
somewhat off the subject but i think it might hold some relevance.

that actually reminds me of the beta max trials where they tried to outlaw the technology because you could record tv shows and stuff with them.. we all know how that went.. the judge declared that the technology had lawful purpose and that any misuse was due to users actions.. the technology was not inherently illegal.

not to mention anything broadcaster over the air waves is free for public consumption and recording for later private use.

people was also using it to record shows they was'nt around for and then skipping commercials, which pissed off the broadcast people..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
61 Posts
Davidk0031 said:
CCW holders are the most law abidding people in the country, it is an incorrect assumptions that if some one legally carries a gun that they are more likely to use it. It has been proven it every state that went Shall Issue CCW holders shooting it up doesn't happen. Do alittle research on CCW crime statistics in shall issue states like Florida. David
Thanks for this. I have not had much training. I have shot alot, but that doesn't count too much because you are NOT under pressure, your in bright lights, you have your "eyes and ears", and you can take your time hitting the 10 zone.
I do count it a great responsibility to have my LTCF. I carry everyday and hope that I never have to be placed it a bad situation. I believe that training, unless you are a professional and train ALL the time, goes out the window when faced with a high pressure situation. The best that you can do would be to keep your head and assess the situation the best you can. Will that be enough? Don't know til I've been there. Hope that never comes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
377 Posts
Life is a series of Choices. These nut cases made a series of choices as well. The moment they began to think of the evil deed, they had the choice to dismiss the idea, yet they chose to dwell on it and the deatils to pull it off. Every dtep they took, from the cleaning of their weapons to the loading of the clips, they made the choice to press on to the deed. Every step they made to the killing locations could have been reversed but forward they went. They chose the location, the time and then finally the targets, innocent citizens. A GUN FREE ZONE. It is like taking a shot gun into a hen house and closing the door.

The liberals want to take away my choice to carry concealed so that I can be one of those defensless chickens. I am an American citizen , and I have a right to choose to own and carry a weapon to defend myself and my family and those who are need of assistance. I believe in training in order to respond appropriately. I chose to carry concealed in hopes that I will never have to use it.

On college campus', I believe that the age appropriate student should also have the right to carry and defend themselves. If they had, then, these collge mass killings would have had different outcomes. It is hard to go into the Chicken Coup for dinner only to find the chickens firing back.

I am sorry about the rant, but common sense has to win out.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
21,439 Posts
Just a little note when seconds count the POLICE are minutes away. The local neighborhood drunk was at it again he was down the street where my 21yr old daughter was tutering a special needs child his wife and 2 young daughters were there visiting. MY daughter called and said so&so was at the door and the lady that lived there was holding him back at knife point. I thru the phone to my oldest and told her to call the police and ran out of the house, he saw me coming and with a beer in his hand met me in the road and pushed me. things did not work out well for him as he found himself on the ground and held for the police to show up. I heard the sirans off in the distance but no one came so I let him up and told him to take his sorry ass home. he did and called the police and said I attacted him they showed up about a five minutes later and they went to his house while some officers were checking on him the other ones told me I sould have called the police I said I had my daughter call. And said he had been violent before and did not have time to wait for you to show up they said what if he had a knife or gun. I did not have time to grab my gun but was carring a good knife. he was a punk and only picked on women and children anyway I got him away from the house with the women and 3 small children plus my daughter. I was able to handle him with no problem. had I not known him pryer I would have grabed my gun for sure. The short skinhead cop came back and said that HE was not going to press charges. without questioning any witnesses I laughed and blessed him for his kindness but reminded him that I had a whole house load of witnesses. so don't always wait for the police. Take your life into your hands and protect it. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
35 Posts
Valid question Vegas...firstly, let me clear something up. i enjoy philosophy. and many times i attempt to take something i have read in philosophy and try and see if possibly it is useful in a given situation. sometimes it turns out not so helpful and sometimes it turns out that people ask more and more questions and these lead them to more profound questions and answers. i was merely offering this idea to open discussion on it. personally, i feel that there are MANY people who act just this way with other things. a thing is introduced, they accept, and feel no need to reason through the reasons they accepted it again, for different periods of time. i was wondering if people thought that this would happened with a firearm. i think that this is a valid question to be asked in pursuit of an answer. personally, i think that just because they allow ccw on campus, that doesnt mean everybody will go out and get a ccw and therefore, this question is irrelevant since it has not become "common". but maybe i am wrong. that is why i offered a spin on Martin Heideggar's idea of "The They" and applied to this gun situation..just to get people thinking.
 
1 - 20 of 62 Posts
Top